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[Poll]

Scandalous Poll


Yes, they're great!
  44% (8)
No, I hate them! I would rather listen to Ottmar!
  22% (4)
I like some songs
  33% (6)
I like Tonino
  0% (0)


Total Votes : 18


(last vote on : Jul. 21 2013 6:41:21) 
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Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M

Ron , there's nowere in my post a mention of Gkings beeing flamenco or not, whatever they are they are, but they are responsible for getting alot of westerners (who precive them to be flamenco) to look more closely to flamenco. Buying cd's, dvd's, organising tours with other flamenco artists as a result of it.
Therefor they have done alot for flamenco ! alot more than some pple are willing to give them credit for.

Nowere in my post do I speak of "Real " flamenco or "Traditional ", all i speak of is that every generation of flamencos has the right to do theyr own flamenco.

I dont know what "real " means in flamenco
And i am pretty sure Traditional is just another way of saying "Old "? Absolutely nothing wrong with that, theres plenty of room in Flamenco for everything Traditional and Nontraditional is all "Real flamenco " in the end.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2004 13:28:00
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

This is one of those arguments where the other sides don't really hear each other, they just shoot off a few lines about what they want to say. Come on, Ron, tell us about how much you hate picado and rumba.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2004 14:18:37
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

I like rumba! I also like picado!
The only thing that I find a bit boring is when the picado goes on and on and on.
I wish I could play really fast picado, however I see a lot of beginners getting hooked on practising this technique above all others, like say, compás and rhythm which I think is a mistake IMO.
I've also said that I think the GK's are OK. So is Jose Feliciano.
However, if I was teaching somebody the basics of Flamenco guitar I would recommend they listen to some other material.

Hey man, you started this thread!!

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2004 16:27:48
 
tanolonco

 

Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Miguel: I do not recall me saying what folks SHOULD listen to, and I do recall me saying that the group who calls themselves the Gypsy Kings obviously have a fan base and for those who like that type of music, then it is right for them. Please go back and read my posts.

My point is that their music is not what most would call true flamenco and if the label of their music is called Mr. Potato Head jig music, does it make it less important to those who like it? No. I did state, emphatically and I will stand by that statement, is that if a person wants to listen to flamenco (and not rumba or polka, etc.) then listen and support those who play the puro forms.

By the way, I am rather puzzled by the tone of your reply. I stated an opinion. I did NOT dictate what folks should listen to, and I did NOT state that a person liking the GK was less than a person liking the puro forms. Here is what you wrote in the starter:

"have cast the first stone. I posted about their new album, which actually has flamenco on it, and I have decided that I like it a lot. Maybe they are the Britney Spears of flamenco, but so be it."

Analyzing your statement: "which actually has flamenco on it" it is very easy to draw the conclusion that you believe their music, at least historically, is non flamenco. And then relating them to Britney Spears I guess implies you believe them to be what many people believe Britney's music to be: fluff and "factory produced". Your statement could easily be interpreted as perjorative.

In reading your other posts, you state that puro flamenco is a myth (does this mean Sabicas and Nino are imaginary people?) which seems to be a very hard and fast. And then we have your statement: "Also, don't we have a rule here not to talk about flamenco puro? It's a distasteful and erroneous argument to make.statement that is not readily supported by facts."

Miguel, before you pass judgement on others, please do a favor to all and clearly understand what others have said and what you have said.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 12:40:12
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

With so many real flamencos to listen to (thus, support) why listen to fluff when you can listen to the real stuff.


quote:

( the group who calls themselves the Gypsy Kings) play may be good, and a lot of people like them (mostly non-flamenco types), but if you want to listen to FLAMENCO, then listen to the real thing--and support the real players.



I am sorry dude but i kind of found that a touch condescending too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 14:23:33
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Tano, I'm just telling you clearly what I feel about your post. I am also telling you clearly how this forum looks at the "puro" issue. You can take it or leave it, but I don't appreciate my posts being parsed and it is completely unhelpful.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 14:57:48
 
tanolonco

 

Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Florian

With the folks who play what is generally considered to be true to the roots authentic flamenco trying to feed themselves on the meger bits thrown to them by the public, I stand by my statement that those artists should be patronized if one wants to hear authentic and puro-ish flamenco. If someone wants to listen to rumba and its deratives, then call it what it is--but do not call it flamenco.

And Miguel, since when do you decide what the forum should be and should not be? If folks want to discuss puro, or not discuss puro, it is not for you to decide, rather, the people. As it stands, your statement expressing what you believe is the will of the people sounds rather authoritarian.

And yes I will use your statements if your statements are appropriate in this discourse--remember, you are the one making the statement.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 15:07:23
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Tano, I guess you didn't read my posts that well. You were just looking for evidence to back up what you already thought. That's pretty normal. I said that one of our earlier forums, that the founding people of this site came from, disintegrated precisely because of a "puro" discussion. In fact the person most directly responsible for the breakup of the forum had a name of "flamencopurista." After each post he would tag on "Viva flamenco puro!" He was very disrespectful of anything he did not consider puro. A very condescending and silly man from Canada. I got very emotional when I read your initial post because it brought back bad memories of this time. You see, this forum is very important to me and many of us because a lot of us don't get to hang around flamencos.

While of course I am stating my own opinions and don't presume to speak for Simon, Ron, Florian, etc., when we started this forum, it is my understanding that the whole "flamenco puro" issue was pretty much off limits. It's just too incendiary. Also, we were supposed to be polite to each other, a line which I fear I have stepped over a bit. I apologize for that.

But telling other people on this forum they should listen to a certain type of music and not another is, in my opinion, totally out of line. This is not a democracy, this is a pub! And if you say something off limits in a pub, people can throw beer at you. The environment we go for here is intimate, fun, and it comes off really bad when someone with 11 posts sits down and tells us who we should support with the money that we earn. Why don't you lay low for awhile?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 15:35:14
 
Escribano

Posts: 6273
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Can we draw a line under this one? We all have a right to disagree. Let's leave it at that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 16:32:39
 
tanolonco

 

Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Miguel: I have indeed read your posts and again I state that I have in no way dictated what people should or should not believe. I have stated my opinion. I have in no way dictated that puro is the only way to go. And in no way did I say folks should only listen or support one type of music. What I have stated is to call something what it is. If I call something fluff, that is my opinion. What I take exception to is someone telling me that I cannot voice an opinion--or should not (regardless of the popularity of said opinion) and interpreting my statements with a priori assumptions.

If in the past someone became dictatorial about something, that was in the past relative to that person. If this forum is truly strong, it can handle someone coming along who has a different opinion. Diversity means more than bean counting--it means diversity of thought and opinion. If you do not want folks, especially new folks, to not discuss the puro issue, I would suggest you make this known. No where have I read that is topic is off limits. You could have explain the history, etc. and done so in a way that did not fuel the flames. Had you done so, I would not be typing this response.

You started this thread and have made several comments along the way that can be seen as flammable. When you make such comments you have to accept the responses to such statements/comments. Truth be told, had you limited your discussion to disagreeing with my opinion I probably would have not felt the need to respond because I have enough fortitude to accept that others may disagree with my position.

If you have noticed, others have voiced their opinions that were opposite of mine and I have not felt the need to counter their opinions because I can appreciate their opinions and know that my opinion is not the universal opinion or necessarily the correct opinion. I offered my opinion as a member of an open forum.

It is your behavior that I take exception to. When you imply that folks can have beer tossed into their face or that as a new person my opinion is not welcomed and I should lay low, what that says to me is that rather than accept someone with an opinion that is different from yours, you would rather have them tossed from the pub. If this is your personal forum, then toss me. If this is not your forum, then I guess we need to come to an understanding that will put this to rest so we can move on.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 16:34:34
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to tanolonco

quote:

What I have stated is to call something what it is.


I'm from the 'call it like it is' school of thought too.

And I didn't know there was an unwritten law not to talk about puro/fusion etc on this forum as I often have a good moan about the flamenco label being applied to everything and anything.


And for the record I like the Gypsy Kings. We booked them for a gig in london once, before they made it so big. But they are not flamenco. I think here they would call them rumberos. I could be wrong. Often am

Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 16:59:01
 
Escribano

Posts: 6273
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate

quote:

And I didn't know there was an unwritten law not to talk about puro/fusion etc on this forum as I often have a good moan about the flamenco label being applied to everything and anything.


There are no unwritten rules, just those we signed up to.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 17:01:12
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Escribano

Hi Simon,

Perhaps we need a reminder what our rules are.

un saludo
Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 17:05:05
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate

Perhaps I am wrong on this issue, then... that's a pretty vivid image of beer being thrown in someone's face, I guess. I've never done that in my life and I'm not about to start. But now you know a bit more about our history, tano, and you've stated your opinion quite eloquently. I'm sure that if we can avoid each other a bit on this issue, we'll get along fine in the future.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 17:08:15
 
Escribano

Posts: 6273
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate

quote:

Perhaps we need a reminder what our rules are.


Sure.... Just click on http://www.foroflamenco.com/register.asp

No need to register, of course.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 17:26:43
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate

quote:

I'm from the 'call it like it is' school of thought too.



I would like to come from that school too but sometimes that upsets pple

Eg :" Yes your ass does look fat in those pants, Your Buleria sucks, You are a very nice person but you are so so ugly."

or here is one : "I find Sabicas and Nino R. music very boring".

But like i said , i dont come from the " call it like it is" school so I guess i wont say that
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 18:25:40
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Escribano

Thanks Simon, just had a refresher course. So no guidelines at all about what we can or cant discuss, just guidelines about the way we go about it. All very reasonable and just.
kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 18:40:25
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate

Well, Kate hold on a second. Of course there are guidelines. Those guidelines are called "social skills." That's why in the history of this forum, there have been maybe TWO arguments. (both incidentally having occurred rather recently, I believe).

My personal belief, not meant to represent anyone else's, is that when you have a lot of time invested in a forum, as I do, that your views on how things should be done there are a LOT different than someone who has absolutely nothing invested.

I think you probably feel the same way, Kate. Maybe that's why you and me and Florian have all gotten along with zero friction, despite the fact that our idea of what flamenco means are completely disparate. Maybe I didn't handle this issue correctly... but this place is valuable to me. It's valuable to me because of you, Kate, and you Florian, and you Simon. The people that I've known for years online--incidentally, Kate, you're the only one I've met in person--are more important than any egalitarian ideals of freedom of speech!

I can take barbs from Ron all day long, but that's because there is a history of goodwill between us and in this forum. You and I can make fun of Florian's spelling, but that's because we're friends. The day it becomes a faceless collection of puro-discussing, should I get the Lucida Picado or the Yamaha CGF51, what strings are best forum is a sad day indeed. I do have flamenco friends here in Phoenix, but I feel closer in a lot of ways to you guys. I welcome Tano and others here with open arms, I just ask that they respect the "aire" of this joint. I'm sure Tano has a LOT of great things to contribute, and I can't wait to hear him share some of his experiences and knowledge. But idealistic ideas of free speech--well, sorry, they don't interest me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 19:26:26
 
Escribano

Posts: 6273
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

The people that I've known for years online--incidentally, Kate, you're the only one I've met in person--are more important than any egalitarian ideals of freedom of speech!


Everyone has something to offer if you just wait a while.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2004 20:17:57
Guest

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate

Well Simon, here you hit the point, and I´m very glad that you did so, because there were a certain tendency in the postings that I didn´t like at all. I hope that this is a forum for everyone that knows how to post without being disrespectfull, and that newcommers (like me) don´t have to learn a lot of unwritten laws or codex to be accepted.
I´m sorry if I were to harsh in my opinions on GK, but I do find it very difficult to take a thread like this on a flamenco forum in serious. But don´t worry Miguel, I´ll post a bit more elegant in the future, because I actually understand your worries, because it´s so easy to throw dirt in everyones eyes on an internet forum

But back to the discussion:
The pure/nonpure topic will always be there. It´s everywhere in the flamenco, and we´ll always discuss it, so lets discuss it (but not all the time!!!!! please).
I followed the flamenco subject on the musicstudies at the university of Granada, and one of the main parts were the fusion of flamenco with other kinds of music during the past 2 - 300 years. There I learnt that flamenco has always fusioned, that it actually is one big fusion. So in my point of view, the puro discussion is silly, and I totally agree with the post by Florian on page 2, about the 40th 70th etc. In the end it´s all about what we like etc.
I´m so lucky that I like most historical variations of the flamenco (not flamencoopera!!). I like very much Niña de los peines con Ramon Montoya, I like Sabicas, Niño Ricardo, Paco, Sanlucar, Camaron, Lole y Manuel (that´s not accepted as flamenco) Morente, Nuñez etc.
But I must admit that I hate GK. I´ve always hated them, and will probably always hate them. But that´s just me, and I´ve no problem with people liking them, if they could please stop wanting me to like that horrible music.
And again, If you are in the mood for Rumberos, take a close look at Niña Pastory, because thats good (IMHO)

Well it´s cold and rainy here in Andalucia, so I´ll go upstairs, light the chimney, and prepare the sides for bending on no3 , a negra.

So be nice to each other
Anders
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 8:36:12
 
Escribano

Posts: 6273
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Guest

quote:

Well it´s cold and rainy here in Andalucia, so I´ll go upstairs, light the chimney, and prepare the sides for bending on no3 , a negra.


Have you done a negra before? I have some nice rosewood but I am not sure about planing it - it's so sticky.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 10:47:01
Guest

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate

Well, the first is a negra, but not with rosewood (palo escrito), but I do find Indian rosewood nice, and easy to work. Just go slow with the plane, because it chips easily. The bottom, I planed only crossgrain, so I had no problem there. It´s a nice wood to work with the cabinet scraber.
The sticky rosewood of yours, what is it? Still waiting for the nice weather to go on with your guitar?

Anders
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 11:51:02
 
Escribano

Posts: 6273
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Guest

quote:

The sticky rosewood of yours, what is it? Still waiting for the nice weather to go on with your guitar?


It's Indian, I think and yes, waiting for warmer weather to clear out the garage and start work again. I may move the workshop indoors with a dehumidifier for thie next Winter.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 12:43:28
Guest

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate

>I may move the workshop indoors with a dehumidifier for thie next Winter.<

That´s being serious Simon. It is kinda addictive this building thing isn´t it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 14:23:53
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

I think you probably feel the same way, Kate.


Hola Miguel,

Yes I do feel the same way. I am open to all discussions but like you feel it would be a shame if this forum fell into the same trap that I have seen on other forums which I no longer frequent due to the constant bitching and sniping.

I like flamenco in all its various manifestations, some more than others. I enjoy the Gypsy Kings, Ketama and OdB etc for what they are, although I would not put them in the same category as more traditional flamenco. The fusion dabate is an interesting one so lets keep our discussions interesting, informative and polite.

I have good memories of the night I met you and your, now, lady wife at the Peña and was really pleased you got the opportunity to enjoy Emilo and Victor performing with the ALhambra lit up as a perfect back drop. Shame about the tapas

Un abrazo,
Kate

_____________________________

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 15:43:38
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate

Oh, don't worry about the tapas! My wife and I are probably just too picky. We certainly enjoyed the music, the incredible aire, and the company.

I'm looking forward to you guys taking the US by storm.

I was wondering what everyong thinks of the commercial viability of a "world music" station. now I know "world music" by now probably has bad connotations, but what if there were a station, t hat instead of playing manufactured pop or rap or dance music, played music from all over the world? So you turn on the station and you may hear a raga from India or a choro from Brazil... or maybe some cante jondo. Of course to many people it would be hard to listen to, but do you all think there would be enough interested people that such a thing would be viable?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 16:39:15
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Guest

Anders,
sorry if I made you feel unwelcome. You most certainly are welcome. There's nothing you've said that I have a problem with, although the discussion of puro/nonpuro is most certainly better left dealt with at places like flamenco-teacher.com, where a flame war is expected and as regular as a bullfight, or in homogenous company. There is no unwritten law here, and as you can see not a lot of people have been supporting me anyways! I think when you said that if you are respectful when you post, you can have 0 posts or 1000 and it will be more than fine.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 17:05:11
 
Escribano

Posts: 6273
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Kate

quote:

Shame about the tapas


Ahh, Spain

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 17:11:52
 
Escribano

Posts: 6273
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Guest

quote:

That´s being serious Simon. It is kinda addictive this building thing isn´t it?


It is and there is not enough room in the garage for the V8 rebuild as well. Engines and sawdust are incompatible. As is having a day job

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 17:14:00
 
Escribano

Posts: 6273
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

"world music"


"cleaning woman, cleaning woman!" for those of you who remember "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2004 17:15:47
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