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Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca
flamenco neck angles, larger frets, ...
Hola all...
I am curios about the thoughts of the other luthiers on neck angle relief. My plans call for 2-3 degrees, but I was looking at a nice 70's Conde last night, and saw it had maybe 1°.
Some makers claim 'flat'... The flatter you go keeps the strings off the soundboard low, but HOW do you keep to buzz out!!?? The Conde was like 2.5mm off the 12th on the low E - with NO buzz at all.
I understand sanding a 'break' in the fretboard, 19th fret, Low E, being the lowest area, but I'm curious how others look at relief, buzz, sanding the fretboard angle, etc...
AND!!!...I was curious about a slightly larger fret; a hair wider and taller, as it barrs nicely, but am afraid of more buzzing due to height (although extremely small increases)... I use the FW72 from LMI...
RE: flamenco neck angles, larger fre... (in reply to Ramón)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ramón
Hola all...
I am curios about the thoughts of the other luthiers on neck angle relief. My plans call for 2-3 degrees, but I was looking at a nice 70's Conde last night, and saw it had maybe 1°.
Some makers claim 'flat'... The flatter you go keeps the strings off the soundboard low, but HOW do you keep to buzz out!!?? The Conde was like 2.5mm off the 12th on the low E - with NO buzz at all.
I understand sanding a 'break' in the fretboard, 19th fret, Low E, being the lowest area, but I'm curious how others look at relief, buzz, sanding the fretboard angle, etc...
AND!!!...I was curious about a slightly larger fret; a hair wider and taller, as it barrs nicely, but am afraid of more buzzing due to height (although extremely small increases)... I use the FW72 from LMI...
Gracias...
I've never thought of neck deflection as an angle (although it is of course) rather as a measurement. It's about 2mm higher at the nut than at the 12th fret, slightly more on a classic. If the deflection is slightly off after you glue on the back then you can taper the fingerboard from end to end to compensate. If you make the neck flat (parallel with the top) you'll have to have a large taper end to end on the fingerboard or the saddle will be too tall.
My understanding of "relief" is a very slight warp in the fingerboard.
If the neck deflection is perfect I make the fingerboard absolutely uniform from end to end then scrape a taper on the bottom from the 12th fret to the sound hole to allow for the arch in the top and the deflected neck.
On flamenco guitars I think the fingerboard should be perfectly straight and flat with the strings off. If the slots are cut the right size the frets should need almost no dressing after they are installed. The string tension pulls a very slight warp into the fingerboard if the neck is sized correctly (relief).
RE: flamenco neck angles, larger fre... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
If the neck deflection is perfect I make the fingerboard absolutely uniform from end to end then scrape a taper on the bottom from the 12th fret to the sound hole to allow for the arch in the top and the deflected neck.
Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca
RE: flamenco neck angles, larger fre... (in reply to Ramón)
I've been looking at and reading all I can about this.... Why do some guitars play SOOOOO easy, and something that looks identical is so much harder to barr???
The "no relief" Conde that I looked at plays like butter, and the strings are like 8mm off the soundboard. I read that a 'raised' head makes for a lower bridge, and closer to the soundboard, yet this thing is "on the deck".
Read somewhere that flamenco guitars "should have a flat neck with no relief", so I was curious about feedback. What do [you] guys build in? 0-flat? 1-2mm? 2-3mm?
And I played a classical with those bigger frets (a 'Little Pepe' Romero) that was sweet to barr, yet Yuris Zeltzin (sp?) says (I'm told) "only standard flamenco-size frets... I've found a fret that's only slightly bigger...
*side note* I made (turned) an ebony dowel for my ebony peg-seats. Did a 'trial' one....Works SOOOO good. Almost feels like my planetary pegs!
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
RE: flamenco neck angles, larger fre... (in reply to Ramón)
Hi Ramón
My first flamenco guitar has no neck relief and that was not good. I had to make the nut and saddle too high to avoid constant buzzing.
My fourth flamenco guitar has too much neck relief ( between 4 and 5mm) due to a mistake during the construction and that's even worse. It's not possible to glue the fingerboard without sanding a heavy angle into it. That will look bad as the fingerboard will have about 3mm at the nut, about 5,5mm at the 12th fret and about 2mm at the soundhole. If you don't sand the fingerboard you'll have to glue it with force to the neck which will result in a concave fingerboard (Chiquita Banana ). That is not good at all at any guitar.
I think that 2mm is the right relief for a flamenco guitar. Guitar Nr. 4 is a sad experience of not having paid enough attention on the correct neck angle. Lost of time and money, but sh.. happens
RE: flamenco neck angles, larger fre... (in reply to Ramón)
Old topic, but is it normal for a flamenco guitar's neck to have slight angle/bowing on the neck when looking at it from the bottom of the top towards headstock? I suppose it can't be straight either... Is the proper amount of this slight "bowing" measured by checking the relief by pressing 1st and 12th fret and looking at the gap at 7th fret, between the string? On my guitar I have some bowing and it's certainly more than on my steel stringed guitars... Thanks
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and that's even worse. It's not possible to glue the fingerboard without sanding a heavy angle into it. That will look bad as the fingerboard will have about 3mm at the nut, about 5,5mm at the 12th fret and about 2mm at the soundhole. If you don't sand the fingerboard you'll have to glue it with force to the neck which will result in a concave fingerboard (Chiquita Banana 
). That is not good at all at any guitar. 
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