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Hi Tom, Just to try to put a $ price on endorsement, let's assume you bought in 2 Siroco Blancas which you normally retail at $1995. Although both guitars were well-made and sounded fine, alas only one had the PdL signature, while the other had only the name of the actual maker. Would you have to discount the "unsigned" one? And by how much do you reckon?...$50?....$100?....more?
@Yes,
If you are living in the US.... Have you given Tom a call at LaFalseta? He's got years of experience with all kinds of makes and models of Flamenco Guitars and can offer great advice if you're not in a position to actually try out some guitars and can only deal by mail.
cheers,
Ron
Hi Ron,
Interesting question. I have never come across this scenario. However, if I did, I would probably return it and have one brought in that had his signature. The easiest thing to do would be to discount it. But how much??? there are guitarists who don't care what or who's name is on the label. They are more concerned with the sound and the guitar itself. I love these guys. Then, there are guitarists who really care what's on the label regardless of the quality of the guitar and negotiating a discount is very hard. I rather just exchange the guitar with one that has Paco's sig. on it and avoid the hassle.
One thing to consider when buying a PdL labeled guitar is that Paco is a guitarist, NOT a luthier. He didn't make this guitar. Does he or his Brother really play all these guitars to "test" them before he signs it? Do they have this kind of time to spend on this? Or, are they just given a box of labels to sign and send back? I have no idea.
The PdL guitar is a good guitar for the money. So are others in this price range. Just buy the best guitar you can with the money your willing to spend on one. Let your ears and hands tell you which is the best one regardless of it's label.
It's no plug Tom, it's the truth otherwise I wouldn't say it!
To play the Devil's Advocate here...
Actually a lot of guitars carry "endorsement".
For example, you can buy a Ramirez guitar that has not been made by Ramirez himself, but by a paid worker. (or even "bought in") All Maestro Ramirez is saying by signing it is that it came from the "Ramirez House" and he has inspected and tried it and it's up to his standard.
That's all. No more.
And the same can be said for a number of Luthier "houses" in Spain.
So, in that way Paco and his brother have created a "house" from which decent, reliable guitars can be purchased and some enthusiastic kid might get a buzz of enthusiasm from having Paco's signature inside their guitar.
I'm not knocking that....that's just life and biz. No prob!
But I think that falsetanuova's quote about Paco not needing the money etc etc is a bit of altruistic hogwash myself...
At the end of the day, it's a family business and nobody runs a business for free.
As I said, Bill Gates doesn't need the money.. But that doesn't hold him back from retaining a few shares in his company and from Microsoft charging well for it's products.
Jeez...It's well documented that Paco's Dad was a very shrewd businessman when it came to managing his offspring.
cheers,
Ron
_____________________________
A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
I'm with Ron, money is always a part of it. I'm sure Paco thought about income, most people want more. And in my mind it was kind of like with anything else. Pierse Brosnan endorsing Omega watch because he's getting paid, not because he is in love with Omega watch. Same with guitars. I hardly doubt Paco comes in contact with overy instrument that comes off the belt...hope there is really no belt
I heard that the PdL line of guitars isn't even Paco's business but, his brother Ramon's. Sort of like something for Ramon to do now that he is retired from being a guitarist. Don't know if this is true but I could see Ramon doing this as a retirement project.
Posts: 15726
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia guitars (in reply to Bogdan1980)
Somewhere along the line, I had heard that Paco, or Paco's brother rather, were not happy about Conde Hermanos, that being the widow's shop Gravina not Felipe V, but even the other shops have the same missconception, that THAT was the guitar Paco uses. They were selling a "Paco de lucia model" guitar, and neither was paco getting money from that, nor was is it endorsed. In fact, they felt that the Paco model Conde was not even a good guitar and certainly not the same instrument that Paco used (Faustino conde).
Sure there were good condes but those were not the guitars that Paco used so they wanted to make a guitar that Paco actually WOULD use and could put his name on, AND make fair money for the advert I am sure. So probably Paco tried all the models, his Brother too, said OK these are good, then sighned a stack of lables, if not use a stamp which is faster and cleaner, and trust the maker sticks to whatever was good about those guitars.
THe big irony is that Paco used the guitar on his CD for 90% of the songs, did a video and took photos, then went back to using Conde.
The biggest add for any guitar is when Paco or any big name player goes on stage with that Conde or Reyes or whatever and new comers say "wow which guitar is he using???"
Likewise, Sanchis is better at the same price, but not EVERY guitar for sure, you need to try. I will vouch for Siroco and the top model negra, two that I spent some time with. I can't remember all the models and which ones I have tried, but those two would be worth the price from what I remembered.
I tried the PdLs in Frankfurt at the international music fair and I like them. Taking a view to Hermanos Sanchís López I have to say that you get very much guitar for the money, so the sound quality you get really is very good. Additionally I have to say that I never have seen a nearly total perfect guitar of them, so their workmanship is definitively slampy (untidy finishing with small left out spots, blistering at the frets or binding, unprecise drilled tuner holes etc.), but this is a good compromise to the price.
They were selling a "Paco de lucia model" guitar, and neither was paco getting money from that, nor was is it endorsed. In fact, they felt that the Paco model Conde was not even a good guitar and certainly not the same instrument that Paco used (Faustino conde).
Couldnt agree more. I tried the "paco" conde in madrid and was very disappointed. Paco would never play a guitar of that quality. Furthermore they were asking 8,000 euros or something for an instrument that was worth 3,500 tops. Just my 2 cents but you can get a much better hand made guitar in Spain for half the money of the so called "paco de lucia" model conde.
OK, I am very new here, but I have a Siroco and I hope this helps someone.
I was scared of flamenco guitars and needed something that could transition me into the flamenco world. I would have spent a lot more money on a Negra, but the Siroco negra had a very even tone, the tone was controllable, and a bit mellow.
It is very sensitive to different strings. I use Savarez Crystals for trebles now, but at first used warm classical strings -- just to understand the tone. Adjusting nails for the strings is very important too.
I put wood panels in a home office and I can get a very very nice flamenco sound in this room. In a larger room is where it falls short of a top quality negra. But If a guitar sounds beautiful anywhere it is probably a guitar you don't want to take anywhere.
So, I can hang it on the wall and travel with it and not freak out. It cost 2,000 US (+-) and is a nice 2,000 dollar guitar and the negra can bridge genres or suck you into Flamenco. I was surprised the quality of the wood for a semi-production guitar. The top is tight spruce, but is not perfect visually.
It is versatile. I play Baden Powell on it by playing over the sound hole -- people tell me they like it better. Anything with rhythm / harmony / melody separation is going to work on this. I am trying Earl Klugh next (after I play this Solea 1000 more times).
Beautiful hand crafted guitars are sacred items. But the best players I know don't dish other guitars and end up playing all types for different reasons.
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