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Matic

 

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

About Rondena 

Today I tried to study a bit of rondena and have a question. Sorry if my expressions aren't clear enough (they may even be stupid) but I try my best since I have never had any serious formal training of musical theory. So...
The tonic is C#.
The scale is C# phrygian (C# D E F# G# A H).
But why are C, D# and F also played? They aren't in C# Phrygian but sound just ok in rondena.
Yes, the F (half tone above III.) is common in flamenco, makes C# major... I could understand this.(I can see your eyes rolling)...its the same in buleria, solea etc.
But what about the other 2? C and D# ?? Why do they sound all right? AND! Do they always soudn cool in rondena or just at specific moment (chord)?

I think I'm complicating it too much. I normally play a chord because it sounds good not because it's written somewhere that it should sound good ie. I'm not a theory-freak. I would just like to know what is the theoretical explanation of those tones sounding ok in C#Phrygian based Rondena. Thanks.

Matic

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2007 17:44:43
 
Estevan

Posts: 1938
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Matic

Things are often spelled wrong in transcriptions. The C is really a B# (or, if you prefer, H#). So it could be a leading note (= 7th of a major scale) moving up to the tonic C#.

You find the same thing happening in Granainas (the corresponding note would normally be A#) and Tarantas (E#); sometimes the cadence comes down to the tonic, and sometimes it goes up (and often it goes down and up, like in rondeñas: D, B#, C#).

Even if the basic scale used is Phrygian, notes are 'borrowed' from other scales, or just added for colour or because they fit the fingers well.

(Someone else can explain the D#, since I am not near a guitar at the moment and might get confused...)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2007 19:58:59

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Matic

You sort of answered your own question.
I think learning tons of Rondenas will help you more than this type
of analysis.
Flamenco tends to break rule after rule in regards to classic western theory.

You just have to listen to,, and play alot of flamenco.

The theoretical explaination of why those tones sound "ok" in C# Phrygian
is = because they sound ok in C# Phrygian.
Knowing any theoretical details beyond this point, arent necesarily going
to turn any lights on, that arent already on.
Get to understanding these things aurally first. Then go back and take note
of the theoretic principle. Or not. As long as you undestand it and
you "hear" the principle, thats all
that matters. Naming conventions are just that, naming conventions.
You can bet tons of great flamenco's know little to none of them.

Well, except Ricardo, he knows pretty much all of em'


T

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2007 20:51:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15030
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Matic

All the notes from the chromatic scale are game. Meaning you may also find G natural, A# or Bb, (please dont' use H, that is off my scale! ), and covers the whole chromatic scale plus the notes you mentioned.

So the reason for certain accidentals, often has a tonic to dominant relation. For example, a G natural, pulls nicely an A7 chord to D major. B# as mentioned pulls to tonic, C# although the sound function is D7->C# major. Typical phrygian cadence, works either as tritone sub (G#7-C# you sub D7 for G#) or the "augmented 6th" harmony stuff a la Western classical music.

So the other accidental was D#. That could be the move B7->E, or sometimes in Rondeña it is your "cambio" G#7-C# another form of the triton sub. Also you can hear the Eb-D resolution, sort of a brief D phrygian fake out.

All the other notes in Rondena function modal, either D lydian or C# phrygian depending on what is going on. Oh, the F natural really should be spelled E# the major third of C#.

Also you can use D lydian dominant or B melodic minor (the A# works their) to get that Manuel De Falla sound.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2007 23:23:00
 
Estevan

Posts: 1938
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

B# as mentioned pulls to tonic, C# although the sound function is D7->C# major.

Yeah, that's if it's in a chord - I was just talking about lines.
Thanks for the elaboration.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2007 23:29:13
 
gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
 

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Matic

Scales are often used as guidelines, and you have to use incidentals a lot in music, to make it work, and that is sometimes just in your ear training, and that is equally important as the implementation of scales. So practice your scales and train your ear as well as just using scales to pick apart music. It will take you far. Ricardo made a great post. Great topic!

Gary
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 10 2007 0:15:26
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15030
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Estevan

quote:

Yeah, that's if it's in a chord - I was just talking about lines.


To me, chords ARE lines, or rather the notes of a scale heard all at once. So your B# is a totally legit chord. I mean D7 is the simple sound, but for the sake of theory, the spelling B#DF#A, is a legit chord. The augmented 6th, can't remember if it is German 6, Italian, or French, but it has a name. Always you find first inversion, DF#AB#. But what you were talking about is totally legit, lines or chords. I just think it is much easier to think "D7" so the note is C natural. One of those Augmented 6th chords sounds like D7b5, but the spelling again is inverted so it is G#B#DF#, and always in second inversion! LOL!

One more scale I thought of was the 5th mode of harmonic major, which also has the "Manuel de Falla" sound and is good for any flamenco stuff. In Rondeña (based on C#) it would be C#DE#F#G#A#B. Sounds great with that D bass note too. Maybe "Cueva del Gato" uses that? Can't remember. That tuning allows for a lot of cool modal opportunities.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 10 2007 6:01:11
 
Matic

 

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Matic

Thank you all for a very informative input.
I think I will stick to Todd's advice and continue doing it the way I've been doing it all the time. Listening and playing as much as I can.

Ricardo, you mention 'de Falla sounding' scale
quote:

In Rondeña (based on C#) it would be C#DE#F#G#A#B.

I just can't get used to that A# in there... can you suggest a piece where this is used? Cueva del Gato?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 10 2007 11:07:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15030
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Matic

Here, the very first melody:


Although, he uses C natural in the chord at the end of it, the recent modern version you see him start Nino Curro with this in the Live in Germany DVD, he uses C#, the exact scale I describe. Sorry I could not find that version on youtube.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 10 2007 16:45:48
 
Matic

 

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Matic

Of course, I can hear it now


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 10 2007 17:19:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15030
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Here, the very first melody:


Although, he uses C natural in the chord at the end of it, the recent modern version you see him start Nino Curro with this in the Live in Germany DVD, he uses C#, the exact scale I describe. Sorry I could not find that version on youtube.

Ricardo


I came across the thing I was talking about. At 12 second, notice the difference in sound with the C# here (verses the C natural in the above vid). Sorry it took so long to find.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2007 18:00:04
 
Matic

 

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Matic

Thank you
The differenc is obvious and nice.

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me caso el año que viene
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2007 16:39:26
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

One of those Augmented 6th chords sounds like D7b5, but the spelling again is inverted so it is G#B#DF#, and always in second inversion! LOL!





Ricardo
Did you ever write for "Guitar for the practising musician" ever cos they managed to make Cmajor complicated

I am having myxolydian flashbacks
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2007 23:20:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15030
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Pimientito

quote:

Ricardo
Did you ever write for "Guitar for the practising musician"


No. But as a young teen, I read all that stuff and learned from it. I actually understand it now. But yeah, they would name a new mode for every note that happens in the song, even smoke on the water!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2007 2:19:23
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: About Rondena (in reply to Matic

So good , also great audio

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2024 13:27:23
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