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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 8:32:41
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: table of contents-theory book (in reply to Guest

I think that you are right music comes first and theory after. Yet most books have large sections which are functionallly useless and remain unread. These are at the start and contain lots of information about scales and chords out of context. I would definately urge you to start with a cadence and introduce the theory which explains simple material that you associate with each chord in the cadence. Maybe a good place to start would be static harmony ( maybe on Ib9 chord in A and E ) then introduce the bII chord ( Bb-A, F-E ) introduce scales and arpeggios in contect as they relate to each new chord that you introduce.

Think of how often you have got a book which has loads of charts and diagrams all in one section and how utterly useless this part of the book is. Mel Bay will love it though as it will make your book look big and will disguise the slender amount of music actually contained in the pages. For an example of a truly useless book of this kind take a look at Jody Fishers atrocious jazz method availabel on Mel Bay. He cant play jazz or swing but that is no barrier to publising on Mel Bay.

I think that the function of a method book is to work in providing a practice METHOD to assimilate the musical material presented. Very often however these things begin by defining enoumous amounts of terms in isolation. I seriously question the validity of this. If the function is to scare off people by introducing enormous amounts of jargon very early on then this tried and trusted route is the one that you shouold stick with. However if you want you book to be used maybe give people something to play from the very start will work better.

Remember the people who will actualy use this book may not have any theory to speak of. Whereas you or I would buy a book and flip through these tedious diagrams and look for actual music a beginner may earnestly read through many pages and eventually give up on what seems like mistyfing gobbldygook.
I think of how often people have read through a few books like this and afterwards cannot even listen to an explanation of say (modal theory) because they were so confused the last time they tried to learn.

It's not like writing a thesis where your moderator will want to see you define your terms ( although he or she will by no means want to actually read this part ) yet so often authors fall into this format. It is probably encouraging as they start to write as they can get page after page down on paper or on the screen without really thinking about how people actually learn.

Anyway that's got that off of my chest. And I am agareeing with you (sort of) put musical examples first then connect this to scales and arpeggios.

Lots of luck.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 9:50:42
 
Stu

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RE: table of contents-theory book (in reply to Guest

quote:

mistyfing gobbldygook


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 12:33:02
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 16:48:37
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 16:57:12
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: table of contents-theory book (in reply to Guest

Hi Kevin. There are two books which I have found to be very useful in moving towards being a whole musician and not just (just?) a classical interpreter. The first is Indirect Procedures by Pedro de Alicantara and the other is How to Improvise by Conrad Cork. The first is a pracitce methodology based on the principles of the Alexander Technique the other is a practice methodology for jazz improvisation.

In my own practice I have tried to combine the two in a way which informs flamenco.

Here is an example for Tangos ( simplest and least controversial to explain ), with static harmony.

Play one bar of compas of Ab9 and in the second bar play one note ( A open string bass ). When this is smooth and comfy and musical ....

Play one bar of compas and then in the second bar play two notes ( A on beat one and Bb on beat two )

Then three and then four notes.

Now continue to extend the scale one note at a time by adding rhythmic complexity ( this allows you to memorise the notes really easily as they emerge one at a time , it builds a really strong relationship between the chord and the scale not only in the mind but in the fingers and also since you are spending half of the time strumming compas you should be bulilding a flamenco context for the new knowledge ).

The rhythms used ( and this is a rhythmic security excercise which I learned from a DumBek drumming instructional video ) are ( phonetically )

1 2 3 4
1+2 3 4 ( quavers on beat one )
1+2+ 3 4
1+2+3+4
1+2+3+4+

then move to triplets
1and + 2 3 4....... adding triplets to each beat until
1+a2+3+a4+a

Next semiquavers and then quintuplets semuquaver triplets. When you get to G or A on the first string then start to descend ( as too many positon shifts obscure the relationship with the underlying chord grip.

After this do this with the bIImaj7+11 chord ( B flat with the optional open E and A on the third string ) go through the same process as above. Note that here you have two options (at least two common in traditional flamenco ) F major ( Bb lydian ) and D minor ( or A phrygian or Bb lydian augmented second ). Also you can use the C and the C sharp if you want.

This way of working has a real gestalt to it.
You are learning the scales(one note at a time) as they relate to the chords straight away without ever learning something that you cant use immediately. You should also be playing in great compas the whole time and you are working on the transition in hand technique between rasg and picado. You are also building rhythmic flexibility and variety into your picado.

I hope that this is useful for you.

Oh and that mode is naturally generate from the augmented ninth chord ( Jimi hendrix chord ) as such it is a blue note or an altered note ( which functions with an altered dominant ).

The bebop scale is often used in flamenco ( and most oral traditions ) but it is spelt in (Adominant) ( A,B,C#,D,E,F,G,G#). Here it helps to spell out the underlying chord (A7) when you play in quavers or semiquavers as every second note is a chord tone

A,b,C#,d,E,f,G,G#
- - - -

Sabicas used this a lot in E ( D and Dsharp in scale runs over E -phrygian tonic.)

I just looked at that last attachnment and those should definately be F naturals ( E FLAT NINTH , flat ninth is F ) and not E sharps. Also in the last chord the d has been displaced by an octave in the music (although the tab is correct ).

Wishing you continued enthusiasm and industry D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 18:16:42
 
Doitsujin

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RE: table of contents-theory book (in reply to Guest

please dont forget many examples on the stuff. If its too theoretical it could get too hard to get through. Well.. its good to know that people are making that who play by themselfs.

3years ago there came a girl in the dance-shool and just wanted to take some pictures to write her exam about flamenco. When I interviewed her in the pause a bit, I noticed that she even didnt know the diffeence between faccuca and buleria.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 19:45:37
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: table of contents-theory book (in reply to Guest

I like the presentation in English, French and Spanish that Herrero and Worms use. Oh and Sabicas and Paco and practically everyon else often combine the Bebop and Phrygian dominant scales in the same run now I think about it again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 19:59:03
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 20:02:01
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 20:05:02
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 20:07:56
 
XXX

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RE: table of contents-theory book (in reply to Guest

It says E7b9, but there is no 7 in the tab (last chord). Is it normal? (?=E add9- ?)

Chapter VI looks interesting. Never heard of CESH? But it sounds good!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 20:37:50
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 21:42:26
 
XXX

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RE: table of contents-theory book (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

Ch. VI
CESH is just a chord with melodic movement somewhere. In jazz, Gminor with one of the octaves going down by step G-Gb-F-E. Gmajor with 5th going up...D-D#-E...I use a Pedro Sierra Alegrias falseta to illustrate that one.


Oh yes! Now i understand what that is (i hope)! There is a ... ahm Mariah Carey song in Gm which uses G-F-Eb kind of movement. So in chords it would be Gm-Gm/7-Gm/6. Its not chromatic i realize, but the principle seems the same. Keep up the great work, i am very interested since there is only so few theory material on flamenco (Manuel Granados made a book, but i dont know how good it is).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 22:11:11
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 22:50:34
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: table of contents-theory book (in reply to Guest

Ah now I get it, on my screen the bottom leger line was not visible when the window containing the attachment was small. So I was reading the Gsharps as E sharps in bar 23. Sorry for the confusion.

The last chord was my mistake again, should really have noticed the four note stave sooner.

Have you tried the method I suggested ? I find it very powerful.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 23:56:10
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 2 2007 23:59:37
 
Ricardo

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RE: table of contents-theory book (in reply to Guest

Sorry I can't go and quote everything, but just some general ideas off the top of my head. For a theory book, yeah it is "intellectual" so it is fine to have your boring scales and chords charts and stuff. For flamenco "theory" you need to have a history of flamenco and glossary of terms, talk about oral tradition, etc etc.

When presenting modes, do both by parent major scale (as you did ) AND also based off of one tonic (your choice, how about A?) so the idea of modes and relations is more clear. I would avoid the "like major with raised 4th" or "like minor with b2 and b5" etc, and instead use the circle of keys, so modes are presented Lydian Ionian mixo dorian, aeolian, phrygian, locrian. Etc. Same goes for modes of harmonic and or melodic minor. Hope you get my point.

quote:

I hadn't thought of Phrygian and Bebop mixture but cool thanks.

Niether did Sabicas! LOL!

Regarding your tritone sub, I only ask Why Viejin? As if he is the only guy or best example? But you have your reasons. Hopefully you will show any dom7#11, or lydian dominant melody, in the FLAMENCO mind, is borrowing from yet another beloved Andalusian cadence, (Gm-F-Eb7-D in your Viejin example) where as the JAZZ mind thinks tritone sub. I mean I hope that is what you are going for.

Oh yeah the example of your Spanish phrygian scale is good spelling wise, but for READING I would prefer to SEE Ab-G alternating. At least in melodies where you are emphasizing those two notes so much. You COULD technically relate it to E super locrian if you want. That is modern jazz idea you see in flamenco sometimes (Nunez has ONE lick he does a lot, like you are doing FmM7 and it is F melodic minor ie E super loc in E). But only if you want to get real nerdy.

One more thing, and this is just my opinion. Most "theory" books skimp on rhythm. YOu have Chapter V where you have the toques with rhythm and harmony mixed. For me, a theory book on Flamenco, THAT Chapter, with special emphasis on ONLY rhythm, would be more than HALF the size of the entire book, and best broken into many smaller chapters. (Tempo meter subdivision swing/feel compas remates contra tiempo odd and mixed meter phrasings in compas etc ever more complex and flamenco specific headed toward the most modern trends).

But that is just me. Maybe I should make my own book. Yeah, forget everything I just said actually!

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2007 22:19:02
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2007 22:57:25
 
Ricardo

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RE: table of contents-theory book (in reply to Guest

quote:

Parker, and Bill Evans examples


Oh ok, like Sabicas and Jeronimo examples?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2007 23:27:47
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2007 23:50:18
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