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RE: Playing to non aficionados (in reply to Florian)
I think Florian hit the nail on the head here....
The way I see it is this...
Are YOU inviting folk to pay to come along to YOUR concert (Which is advertised as Flamenco Guitar). OR Are you "gatecrashing" someone elses party, or music evening...as a "special guest"?
Very different audiences on each occassion IMO.
A famous Flamenco professional said to me once..
"Stagecraft" is very important as a Professional...
Basically you have three kinds of audiences...
1. Entertainment Audiences (Including Culture Vultures etc.) 2. Guitar Audiences (Who are from various guitar backgrounds, but interested in technique etc) 3. Flamenco Audiences (Who just want a good Flamenco experience)
Oh...and Yes..
4. Keep a couple of "Party pieces" up your sleeve, that you can play easily with no warm up and after a few drinks as a guest at a private party...
cheers,
Ron
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A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
Posts: 2007
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Playing to non aficionados (in reply to koella)
No 1,000 US, and I've been paid considerably more than that, but no, I'm not nearly that good. In this kind of work it's not about being a great player.
I have an agent and he works with high end corporate clients. Also, I've been around a long time-thirty years of guitar, 20 of flamenco. I've managed to do a handful of high profile gigs, which look good on a resume. I show up on time, dressed well. I own a small business which I may a good living from. I made sure the agent knows that, and I don't accept any gigs from him which don't pay very well. This serves the dual purpose of me making a lot of money for very little work, and prevents me from devaluing the market for full time players. I only play a gig 6-12 times a year for this agent. If I was trying to earn my entire living from playing, it would be much different. I'd have little leverage in that case. He booked a well known piano player(the guy has a few Grammys) for a solo one hour gig for 30k. The agent has contacts.
I'm usually not the only musician, sometimes it's a trio, a quartet, a show with daHHHncers whatever. The agent knows that I can get it done. If I can't I say so and tell him who to call. The first time he hired me to do a flamenco show, it was on a yacht. There were eight other bands there. I asked if the girls needed to be pretty. He said "PLEASE"! I laughed to myself, thinking, I could have hired one truly amazing dancer for what I was going to pay the three, but that's not what they wanted. I hired three pretty girl dancers plus another guitarist and singer who have been playing flamenco for thirty plus years. They happen to look a lot like gitanos. The agent showed up, took one look at the girls and the "gitanos", and left. He was very pleased. At this point, I've never made more money per gig and never practiced less. I expressed my guilt to my wife and she said Enjoy it, you've earned it. So, that's what I do.
RE: Playing to non aficionados (in reply to koella)
Paco Picado...
Yes i know what you mean mate, its a crazy world .
About 3 years ago Dancer Belen Fernandez was told to shut up at a Paco Pena, flamenco concert in Adelaide lol, she just happened to be in Adelaide doing some dance workshops and because she had toured with Paco Pena at the start of her carrer, she came to the show.
but because she was in the crowd, people assumed she didnt know and was just beeing a nusance ( the crowd was packed as it allways is at the Festival Centre etc., upper class pompas ass, old Culturaly aware wanna be yuppies)
RE: Playing to non aficionados (in reply to Florian)
sorry , just realised my story was inconplete... she was told to shut up because the was giving the singer (David Palomar) jaleo during some beautiful cante, ( cant remember the palo).
its funny con sidering the same Bellen Fernandez got a standing ovation about 6 years prior to this, in exactly the same theatre, by probably exactly the same crowd, only difference was that she was wearring normall clothes, and wasent on stage.
also, she did a quic buleria after the show in the forea, while waiting for Paco pena to come out, i remember the looks on some peoples faces , looking at her like she was mad.
but put her on stage , with the dress on , different story , they cant get enough. lol
dont worry, amigo we are all just as confused about how this stupid things work as you are.
its the same with everything not just flamenco, majority of people are just sheep lol.
RE: Playing to non aficionados (in reply to Florian)
quote:
upper class pompas ass, old Culturaly aware wanna be yuppies
Yup, same croud as you see in a theater. We have those in Germany too. The most important thing for them is showing themselves there and saying they were there.
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
RE: Playing to non aficionados (in reply to paco picado)
I got a Cat, Its called Custard Paco Picado
quote:
ORIGINAL: paco picado
I have played some solo flamenco guitar at the odd folk, open mic nights around Lancashire,in the last few weeks, playing bulerias, tarrantos etc, even though I played quite well. The audience was less than appreciative, I could see big ? marks over their heads. One person said to me,” why does your stuff not have a melody”, and a comment after I played a Tarrantos, "why do you keep stopping and starting" during the piece, and “why do u keep making knocking sounds on the front of your guitar”, meaning Golpies. LOL The organiser of the event, a former member of 'The Houghton Weavers', folk group said, thanks for coming, but nothing u played made any musical sense to me. I have learnt my lesson not to waste my time again. Cheers Dave
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: Playing to non aficionados (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2 And Ricardo is also right about the proper sound , as well as the quality of the playing. I truly believe that if PdL was unknown and did some of the background music gigs I was ignored at , they would have turned into concerts as soon as he ripped off his first picado. It would really bust my bubble to find out that wasn't true.
Maybe you should prepare to be busted - I'm not so convinced of that at all. Search Google for an article called "Pearls before Breakfast", published in the Washington Post a few months back. A must-read for any musician, IMO. I doubt Paco's virtuosity is significantly more than Joshua Bell's, so any claim that people can immediately recognize such quality I'd definitely dispute, sad to say.
Anyway, my two cents on this - I took some friends in my study abroad program (all Americans in Granada), about 6 or 7 of them, to see Emilio Maya last night with cajón and violin, he played mineras, jaleos, seguiriyas, etc., and my friends - who'd never heard flamenco before - were blown away. Maybe there's hope yet - just gotta find the right non-aficionados :) After all, most of us were non-aficionados at one point or another!
Posts: 2007
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Playing to non aficionados (in reply to koella)
I read that article and saw the vid of Bell. You may have a point, but I'm not entirely convinced. I think Paco's playing IS more distinctive than Bell's to an average man on the street. It's that PICADO that would stop most people I think. But depressing as the thought is, I can imagine people that would rather talk about their latest purchase of a pair of shoes than hear Paco even if he was right in front of them..........Bell seemed to be going out of his way to prove a point in the way he presented himself. And solo violin vs. flamenco guitar........Fortunately, Paco won't be in the subway anytime soon.
Do you really go to Yale? A buddy of mine who plays flamenco is a grad of there.
Maybe you should prepare to be busted - I'm not so convinced of that at all. Search Google for an article called "Pearls before Breakfast",
Well it depends where you go. That was not the point I felt Mark was saying. If he brought his violin to Borders books or something, I gaurantee you a big crowd will gather around if it is on the weekend. Also I think if PDL or even someone not so famous played FLAMENCO guitar instead of classical music, who ever it was would get more of a "crowd" and more money. Especially in DC where it is very metro.
So Mark was saying what if this guy got a gig playing background violin in a paid gig...would people pay attention MORE than a lesser violinist. That would be a fair test.
I have often fantasized (and even joked with managers) at my steady club gigs, about having PDL sit in or sub in, if the management would notice. I think if he had an electro acoustic, and made some noise, folks would be quite impressed.
In addtion to charging more or being loud enough, I have to say it helps to have charisma too to get attention and respect. Some guys play great, but don't "project" themselves enough on the audience.
For Koella, $1000...shoot DJ's make the same as real musicians, just for pushing "play" on the cd player.
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: Playing to non aficionados (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
I read that article and saw the vid of Bell. You may have a point, but I'm not entirely convinced. I think Paco's playing IS more distinctive than Bell's to an average man on the street. It's that PICADO that would stop most people I think. But depressing as the thought is, I can imagine people that would rather talk about their latest purchase of a pair of shoes than hear Paco even if he was right in front of them..........Bell seemed to be going out of his way to prove a point in the way he presented himself. And solo violin vs. flamenco guitar........Fortunately, Paco won't be in the subway anytime soon.
Do you really go to Yale? A buddy of mine who plays flamenco is a grad of there.
Well, I hope you´re right! For sure, the flamenco guitar is probably more exciting to the layperson (but maybe that´s just my bias) than classical guitar. And Paco´s got to be better than anyone (right, with the picado) of impressing a crowd. I was simply thinking that the idea that virtuosity is easily recognized might not always apply--that´s what that article did for me :) But yeah, I hope you´re right about that.
And yep, I do go to Yale. Who do you know who went there? I know the Ramos brothers went (Val´s my teacher now, actually) and I also met a friend of theirs at a juerga who plays flamenco and went to Yale, but I forget his name...
And hey, Ricardo, don´t make fun--DJs scratch records around too!!
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whatever. The agent knows that I can get it done. If I can't I say so and tell him who to call. The first time he hired me to do a flamenco show, it was on a yacht. There were eight other bands there. I asked if the girls needed to be pretty. He said "PLEASE"! I laughed to myself, thinking, I could have hired one truly amazing dancer for what I was going to pay the three, but that's not what they wanted. 
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