Another saddle making thread...

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Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

Another saddle making thread...

I have sanded a new saddle for my classical guitar. When i was trying it, I realised a buzz that comes from the saddle when I play the E- bass -string.

Any suggestions what I could have done wrong? I think, that I filed the top of the saddle in a wrong angle, what do you think?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2007 13:03:07

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Gux

You need to post a picture....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2007 14:15:41

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Thanks that you want to help me.

I'll have to wait till my sister can lend me her camera.

Until then, with that buzz, I should perhaps learn "the flight of the bumblebee"...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2007 17:15:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Make sure you have enough break angle over the bone. That would be after it touches the bone, the saddle I mean, the angle that goes down into the tie block. If it is like 1 or 0 degrees, then the string will buzz against the saddle when you play hard.

If that is the problem, then you can try a different method of tieing the string so you don't loop underneath and pull up on that little piece of string (traditional tie method). Or maybe you can raise the saddle a bit on the bass side. If it affects the action too much, meaning too high, then you may need to have a luthier look at it. I had a friend have a guitar fixed with this same problem (buzzing at the bridge because of too shallow break angle), and the string holes were re drilled lower.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2007 19:17:42

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Thanks Ricardo, but I think the break angle is ok.It's the same height as the old saddle. Just now a bone saddle.

Anders here is the best picture I could make. It's made with a magnifying glass held before the camera.

I hope this helps.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2007 20:29:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Angle looks ok. Try pushing down on the edge of the bone, both bass and Treble sides independantly, when plucking the low E and see if the buzzing stops. Maybe you need a shim underneath? Also try replacing the E string if you can't find the cause of the buzzing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2007 20:33:41

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Here is how the top of the saddle is formed.

The black line shows how it is at the moment, the red line is how I guess it should be.

Ricardo you are really fast, I'll try it, thanks.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2007 20:42:19

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

To me it looks as if the "flat" upper edge, on which the string shall touch, is filed in a wrong angle. I prefer to have all the surface touching the string. To do that you need to have the back edge of the bone higher, but not too high so that the string break over the edge. Give the bone exactly the same angle as the string has on you picture and it will be fine.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 5:18:19

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

well in the end intonation could be a subject.

The bone shouldn´t be round. You can make it like the red line and it wont be causing a buzz, but the best will be to adjust that red line so that its as close to the strings breakangle as possible. I think its what Per says as well, but sometimes words are difficult

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 7:57:27

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Thanks Anders! How did you do that? Explaning a guitarthing with just a few words. You're a genious!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 9:44:16

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

From what has been said, try turning the saddle round to face the other way. That might solve matters without you having to re-shape the top. Worth a try.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 12:39:01

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

The string need better contact with the saddle to not buzz so reshaping is the only option. To turn the saddle backwards could ruin the intonation giving a buzzing guitar playing sharp.

Now Anders, please explain.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 13:27:54

Sherman

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 15 2007

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

GuxDiBux,
Good luck with your saddle. I just finished making one, it took me a lot longer than I had thought. I have read that the saddle should fall by gravity into the bridge slot, but not come out if the guitar is turned upside down. Any thoughts on that? Great thread by the way, the pictures really help!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 14:16:20

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Hi, thanks for all your help. I really appreciate it.

Turning the saddle round won't work, because it's height decreases to the treble's side.

I will shape it as recommended and will let you know if it helps. Im glad that I left enough material on the saddle so that sanding away a bit is still possible.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 17:46:39

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

This thread is interesting. there's a guide to fitting saddles here, courtesy of LMII:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/MakeNewSaddle/newsaddle02.html

Note that this is the SECOND page. But it DOES say to make the top of the saddle ROUNDED and and NOT angled.

I was also making a saddle myself today, and my teacher said the same thing: round the top, so that the strings make contact over the CENTRE of the saddle and are less likely to break.

So I'm not sure who to believe...

Jb

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 17:55:17

Guest

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

So I'm not sure who to believe...

Believe Per and Anders: they are guitarreros and know what they are doing. A hueso is half rounded or relieved on the face oriented towards the bottom of the guitar.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 18:24:48

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

You can perfectly well make a rounded saddle. The important thing, which is what I try to point out, is that the string should be in contact with more than just the top of the saddle. In the picture above you can clearly see that the string is resting only at the top of the saddle. That is not optimal IMO. More contact, more friction, better transfer of energy and less buzz.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 18:28:04

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Believe Per and Anders: they are guitarreros and know what they are doing. A hueso is half rounded or relieved on the face oriented towards the bottom of the guitar.

Gracias Sean! See, this is the problem with internet information and some luthiery schools... their guidance is not always accurate.

Jb

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 18:29:08

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

You can perfectly well make a rounded saddle. The important thing, which is what I try to point out, is that the string should be in contact with more than just the top of the saddle. In the picture above you can clearly see that the string is resting only at the top of the saddle. That is not optimal IMO. More contact, more friction, better transfer of energy and less buzz.

Aha, I think I understand, Per... maximum contact between the string and the saddle is more important than the shape? So by leaving the front end of the saddle flat to match the strings, and angling the back end to match the break angle, you ensure more saddle to string contact and thereby help to maximize soundwave transmission and minimize buzz...

Gotchya!

Jb

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 18:37:38

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Sorry, but wouldnt be the friction at maximum when the contact is only concentrated in one single point at the bridge?

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 19:14:16

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Sorry, but wouldnt be the friction at maximum when the contact is only concentrated in one single point at the bridge?

I feel I should point out that Deniz is a PHYSICS student, LOL!

Jb

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2007 20:00:43

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Deniz, is it my thinking or use of words that is wrong? Please explain. In my world the racing cars have wide tires, with big contact surface, to get a good grip during the race.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2007 7:38:36

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Per, i dont think you are really "wrong". But i think what you mean is not friction? If we look at the forces and their directions from the top of the saddle there are two: one that shows to the head of the guitar, and one that shows downwards to the top ("into" the saddle).

The resulting force of these two, the diagonal, depends on the mix of them, which one is stronger. Now, if you make the saddle "longer", or broader, you get more of the first force, the resulting will show a little bit more to the head of the guitar.

The force itself is the surface multiplied with the pressure and with the so called friction coefficient. When you reduce the surface, you get more "pressure per surface", more friction, but not necessarily more force, which is maybe what you wanted to say?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2007 9:27:18

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to XXX)

OK, I see what you mean and agree. Friction is not a good word in this case. What I really want to say is that buzz sometimes occur when the string passes over the saddle without touching it all the way. The tricky thing is to make the saddle so that the highest point is not sharp (and break the strings) but not rounded either (causing buzz). Being an analogue guy I have made a drawing to explain a good saddle profile. At the front edge there is a very slight bevel. Do you see it? This is made with a file after the saddle is sanded (but before the polishing on the buffing wheel) just to make sure the sanding didn't round the front edge with eventual buzz as a result.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2007 10:29:43

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Ooops, that was a really big saddle...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2007 10:31:10

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Per Hallgren

Ooops, that was a really big saddle...

Haha, yes that is ALOT of pressure

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2007 11:28:14

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

thanks per!
the picture makes it very clear. i got pretty close on the saddle i made a few months ago, but I didn't file the front edge as much. now i know how i will make my next saddle. :D

a problem i have with my guitar is that the individual strings break off at different angles (i have 12 hole stable).. is that just sloppy workmanship, or could it be on purpose? the G string has the steepest angle at 35-40 degrees or so, and B string the straightest, the difference is pretty big, 5-10 degrees.. bass strings and little e string all break at the same angle at around 30. (guessing the angles by eye)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2007 11:44:33

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

quote:

a problem i have with my guitar is that the individual strings break off at different angles (i have 12 hole stable).. is that just sloppy workmanship, or could it be on purpose? the G string has the steepest angle at 35-40 degrees or so, and B string the straightest, the difference is pretty big, 5-10 degrees.. bass strings and little e string all break at the same angle at around 30. (guessing the angles by eye)

Well, **** happens and when you are drilling in a very hard wood a 1.5-1.6 mm drill can wander off its planned path. I wouldn't call it sloppy, but it is most probably not made with intention.

By the way, the little bevel at the front edge of the saddle is of course what is used for intonation of the guitar. Move the bevel away from the nut you flatten the string (i.e. the octave compared to the 12th fret harmonic), moving it forward you sharpen it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2007 14:11:16

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

Ooops, that was a really big saddle...

Wow, reminds me of the action on my first classical!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2007 14:12:22

Sherman

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 15 2007

RE: Another saddle making thread... (in reply to Georg)

Great thread! Thanks Per for your "diagram", very helpful. I've heard differing opinions on how snug the saddle should be in the bridge slot. Sebastian Stenzel mentions on his website about removing a saddle (presumably too tight with treble sound restricted), filing or sanding it slightly, and noticing a big improvement. In the book I recently got by John Bodanovich he mentions the saddle should fall into the saddle slot by gravity, but not fall out if the guitar is turned upside down. Frank Ford mentions pushing it in and pulling it out with plyers. Maybe he's referring to steel stringed guitars. My guess is there's no hard and fast rule. Thanks Deniz for the physics lesson!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2007 14:29:53