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Attn: Zata... The Cante in Flamenco
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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 Attn: Zata... The Cante in Flamenco
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Estela,
The thing I find about Flamenco is that the more you learn, the more complicated it becomes!
As if trying to get one's head around all these unweildy and unfamiliar rhythms isn't enough, I see that the Cante is made up from lines containing an fixed amount of syllables.
Why is this? Where did this idea come from?
The only thing I've ever heard of that is remotely like that is Japanese Haiku.
What if you sing a line with more or less syllables?
Does it immediately sound wrong to experienced listeners, like going out of compás?
Also, why are certain letras revered even though they don't say anything particularly profound as in say, a memorable line of poetry?
My Spanish isn't great, so I have to read translations and I am constantly puzzled by the way the subject matter jumps around all over the place, unlike "Western" song which usually develops a theme or storyline.
I mean one line will describe the singer being distraught about her mother's death.
The next line will be something about how Juan will go to jail if he doesn't mend his ways.
And the next line will be about eating beans and drinking limón!
(I'm aware I'm exaggerating here, but can you get the drift of how it sounds to me? LOL!)
I know this is too big a subject to answer in a post, but are there any articles in English on the Web that can maybe explain some of the above?
cheers
Ron
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 18 2004 11:10:46
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Attn: Zata... The Cante in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)
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Ron, I love talking about cante, it’s the only thing I know a little something about, and so few people are interested  .
> Cante is made up from lines containing an fixed amount of syllables.
> Why is this? Where did this idea come from?
I know so little about music other than flamenco, I thought all song was based on verse...isn’t it? 
> The only thing I've ever heard of that is remotely like that is Japanese Haiku.
It’s astonishing you should happen to say that right now. On another forum we were talking about the different metric forms of flamenco verses...about 95% is based on 3 or 4 lines of 8 syllables each, and most of the rest is based on a form called “seguidilla” which is made of shorter pieces, 4-7 syllables. Someone asked if the seguidilla (not siguiriya!) form was common in all Spain so after some Googling I discovered it is a Spanish poetic form some academics call “Spanish haiku”...Ron, that was yesterday, the same day you wrote your message mentioning haiku! (Or are you lurking on that other forum?  )
> What if you sing a line with more or less syllables?
In all music, specific melodies (in this case, cante styles) accommodate specific beats of voice, and that is the constant which is at work. “Strangers in the night” as it fits the corresponding melody contains 5 beats. Those same beats can be occupied by singing “Stra-a-a-an-gers” or any other combination of repeated syllables to fit those 5 beats. You can also take a longer line, for example “I’m afraid of the strangers” and condense it to just 4 beats without losing any meaning: “’fraid of strangers”. Singers easily expand and condense poetic lines to fit the 8-beat mold inherent in traditional melodies. Seguidilla verses do not fit 8-syllable melodies without modifications, and vice versa. It falls upon the singer to make verses fit in a way which sounds natural. Also, the ups and downs of any given melody suggest a certain lilt and not every verse fits every lilt, even if the syllables are right. Strangers in the night=once upon a time=Mary had a lamb. These are interchangeable fragments. Different combinations of 5 syllables would not sound natural in that same simple melody: “George Bush is a kook” would sound awful to the first line of Strangers because the nature of the melody emphasizes the first syllable, and we do not say GEORGE Bush, but rather George BUSH.
That’s the mechanics of it. In practice, singers either sing verses whose meter has been worked out long ago, or make their own adaptations, often on the spot, it’s not that hard. Verses are easily interchangeable between the 8-syllable forms which includes almost everything, and the minor modifications come naturally. Compás is always the unifying force which is never violated, so a singer sacrifices everything, even the inherent meaning of the verse should it become necessary, to obey compás. But more often, certain verses fit well with certain styles, and those successful items become classics. An awkward fit may be sung a few times, but is soon forgotten. Compatibility of verse content and music is another consideration: a dramatic melody does not deserve a frivolous verse, nor is the inverse situation logical.
> Also, why are certain letras revered even though they don't say anything particularly profound as in say, a memorable line of poetry?
I’m not sure which ones you’re thinking of. The verses are only 3 or 4 lines and may make oblique references to complex concepts which are merely inferred. Sometimes there’s historic background we couldn’t possibly know about such as a verse of soleá sung in Lebrija, I can’t remember it precisely, but it’s just a mother telling her child not to cry, she’ll be right back. It dates from a time when you could not leave a child unattended lest it be stolen, but that context has been mainly forgotten and only the intensity of the verse and the melody remain. Sometimes historical episodes are alluded to, and the context is no longer remembered although the verse has become a classic, perhaps because some famous singer used to sing it.
> My Spanish isn't great, so I have to read translations and I am constantly puzzled by the way the subject matter jumps around all over the place, unlike "Western" song which usually develops a theme or storyline.
There is no story line. The verses are brief and independent, each one a little jewel unto itself. Like haiku  . Some modern recordings force a story line by giving the verses a common thread, but it’s not the nature of cante.
Generally speaking the verses are only a vehicle to carry the melody and the compás. Some singers are more picky than others about what they sing...some aren’t picky at all...men sing verses that would be spoken by a woman (“my husband bla bla bla....”), this in a culture where no man will ever be caught saying another is handsome! (Ask a Spanish man if Tom Cruise is handsome...he will stare at you in offended disbelief and demand “How am *I* supposed to know?!”).
Estela ‘Zata’
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 19 2004 16:59:30
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Attn: Zata... The Cante in Flamenco (in reply to zata)
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Estela,
Thanks for your reply and info.
I think I may see what you are getting at here, because in a way it sounds like the structure of falsetas in guitar, which is the only real understanding I have in Flamenco.
I mean it is possible to hammer and squeeze a bunch of notes into fitting the compás, and technically it will be a flamenco falseta, but not a good falseta.
The good falsetas are those which elegantly weave their course within the compás and make some kind of sense musically and emotionally.
Some falsetas are great in the way they stray into interesting and unfamiliar territory, but still maintain an anchor to reality, and as you hinted at yourself in another post...look to everybody that they are not going to make a safe landing, but somehow elegantly pull the stick in a way that nobody had thought of to make a perfect three-pointer.
It is also true that listening to a good solo flamenco composition is very different from listening to a Classical one.
Flamenco guitarists seem to find an idea, develop it, then let it drop and forget it, moving on to the next idea rather than trying to develop an overall theme.
So I can see the parallel with the Cante "letras" and guitar "falsetas" here.
Which would make sense, as they are both different aspects of exactly the same art.
Even though, I still feel I have only scratched the surface in understanding this complex art form.
So what you are saying is that it is entirely possible for a singer to "wing it", stretching and adding to bits of received Cante letras provided it "works"?
And also, the fixed number of syllables in a line could be, say increased by "doubling up" a word, so long as the compás was adhered to and it added to the overall impact of the line?
cheers
Ron
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 19 2004 22:04:34
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