Santos or Barbero plan

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JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Santos or Barbero plan

Any advice on which plan for a first timer? What is the difference sound wise? Is it then better to stick to that one plan for the first few guitars to get a feel for the nuances of building. Can I build a guitar with a ten pound maul?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2007 20:53:33

legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Santos or Barbero plan (in reply to JasonM)

Jason,

It's not related to your question, but didn't you received an email or PM from me few days ago ? I was answering to your demand about the Tientos book from Worms...
Cheers-

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2007 21:46:46

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Santos or Barbero plan (in reply to JasonM)

Hello JasonM

When i started luthery i have first built both models, the Santos and the Barbero. I couldn't tell which one is better or easier to build. I think both are well suited to start with, but both guitars are completely different. The Santos is more lightly built with a shorter scale. A Santos plan drawn by Roy Courtnall is availlable at madinter and a Barbero plan drawn by R.E.Bruné is availlable at luth.org

On the link below you may find out whether or not you should get into luthery.

http://www.buildyourguitar.com/isitworth/quiz/index.htm

The sound of the two guitars is difficult to describe. You may hear the Barbero sound on some old Sabicas recordings such as "flamenco puro"

Santos Hernandez recordings are more difficult to come by. I couldn't tell you right away where to find it.

However, it is not easy to really catch the authentic sound of either the Santos or the Barbero. It is not recomendable to just copy the measurements of top and back thicknesses as indicated on the blueprints because every piece of wood has different phisical and acustical properties. The correct thickness of top and back must be determined according to the stiffenss and densitiy of the material used. Even if you are already experienced in woodworking and familiar with guitarmaking, it is unlikely that your guitar will sound Santos or Barbero alike. However it is possible to get closer to the real sound if you build few guitars of the same model in a row. You are going to understand better the whole construction and most probably your'e going to realize how to adjust the guitar in order to improve the tone.

Another thing to consider is the money you are going to spend when starting with luthery. If you really want to build an acceptable instrument you will have to purchase a couple of tools. It is possible though to build a guitar just with a few chisels and drills and a plane but it will be quite a hassle. The progress will be slow, the outcome of the work will not be that acurate and the risk of spoiling things is much higher as well, unless you are a very skilled woodworker.

A good assortment of fine woodworking tools is recommendable if you have in mind to build more than one guitar. It's just more fun to have good tools at hand.

Finally you need to have also some tonewoods. You may start with a Kit or you can try to build the guitar all by yourself. The thing is, that the woods as sold by the supplier are usually green and not seasoned.

Before you start building you need to make sure the wood is dry enough. (not more than 8% humidity contain in the wood) Ohterwise you may experience serious problems during building (warping of parts) or afterwards once the guitar is assembled cracks my appear due to evaporation of the humidity in the wood. Therefore it's best to purchase the tonewoods early enough and to store the wood in the same climate and humidity (45-50% humidity) as the instrument is going to be assembled.

There would be much more to talk about but i think this are the basics to consider when starting with luthery.
Once you have successfully built your first guitar, you are going to be proud on yourself and you will enioy your instrument.

Good luck

Armando

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2007 21:49:46

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Santos or Barbero plan (in reply to Armando)

Wow Armando! Thanks for taking the time to respond. I would not have known about the "greenwood" so to speak in regards to those kits. That is definitely the way I would start. This is something I've been looking into from time to time over the years, and am not sure if I'm ready to commit and make the investment. I still have so much to learn about flamenco guitar. But times a tickin. The sooner I start the better.

I was thinking that I should sign up for a basic wood working class first. Take it real slow. Mabey I could attempt to cut and plane a top or make a bridge under the supervision of an experienced wood worker, even if he is not a luthier.

quote:

It's not related to your question, but didn't you received an email or PM from me few days ago ? I was answering to your demand about the Tientos book from Worms...
Cheers-

Hey Legrec, I didn't receive your PM. Perhaps it never went through? But I thank you for taking the time to help. I wound up ordering the book and its on its way.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 3:13:53

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Santos or Barbero plan (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

I was thinking that I should sign up for a basic wood working class first. Take it real slow. Mabey I could attempt to cut and plane a top or make a bridge under the supervision of an experienced wood worker, even if he is not a luthier.

Yes, it would be wise to get some basic woodworking experience first... for example, how to use a plane and sharpen your tools. You could learn as you go along, but its best to get some practise in first so that you avoid ruining expensive materials.

I have both the barbero and Santos plans, but I was a bit concerned about the neck relief described on the barbero ones, so I went for the Santos.

Btw, check out the musical instrument makers' forums for more help and advice:

www.mimf.com

http://www.luthiersforum.com/

Jb

_____________________________

¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 12:19:05

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Santos or Barbero plan (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Thanks JB. I have been looking around for some wood working classes. I think the biggest things (that I know of) in terms of basic wood working that I need practice doing, would be precision with a chisel and plane, joint making, and tricks of the trade.

Could anyone comment on the sound of a Santos? Is it more modern sounding than the barbero?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 20:03:22

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Santos or Barbero plan (in reply to JasonM)

Welp... Found this link here from Zavaletas with sound samples.

http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/files/zmadrid.htm

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 22:35:26

DoctorX2k2

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Santos or Barbero plan (in reply to JasonM)

Even though records can be questionned, this might give an insight.

Santos Hernandez

Barbero

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 22:37:28

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Santos or Barbero plan (in reply to DoctorX2k2)

Its hard to tell because the recording of the Santos sounds better. More clear the the Barbero recording. To me, the Barbero sounds darker? and rough compared to the Santos. Hard to tell though

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2007 0:19:50

DoctorX2k2

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Santos or Barbero plan (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

Its hard to tell because the recording of the Santos sounds better. More clear the the Barbero recording. To me, the Barbero sounds darker? and rough compared to the Santos. Hard to tell though

True, but it's not played by Sabicas

If I were you, I'd simply chose the one with the scale you're comfortable with. Santos is 650mm while Barbero is 660, I think. Both are great and you can't expect to achieve their sound with accuracy.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2007 20:59:40