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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: chord list (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
I am curious about the Spanish phrygian. A-Bb-C-C#-D-E-F-G-A.
In her book on Flamenco Music Theory, Lola Fernandez calls A-Bb-C#-D-E-F-G-A the "modo flamenco." I don't know if she made that up but I don't agree.
I agree with her 100%. One can make up "names" for scales (a mode IS a scale), call it the "romerito mode" if you want, but the name is not so important as the actual notes and their use. THAT is the true "theory" or point of it. Since she is talking flamenco, her terminology is the same I would use, and here "theory point" taken. Perhaps we could say it is the "flamenco phrygian", but not fair since a lot of spanish music that is NOT flamenco, uses the same mode. But be honest, spanish classical music owes a lot to that mode from the flamencos.
Chords are notes from a scale or mode stacked up. So guitarbuddha pretty much clearified it. In addition I would like to add my peronal terminology to clearify things:
Phrygian, or natural phrygian, or minor phrygian=ABbCDEFG
Phrygian Dominant (mode 5 of harmonic minor)=ABbC#DEFG
Spanish phrygian (a combination of the two above)=ABbCC#DEFG
Flamenco uses other and any notes from the chromatic scale (such as G#) which also affect harmony, but this is a base. Because the guitar is a western tonal type instrument, you can apply the same harmony ideas to these modes, as one would do with major or minor keys in Western music.
You don't have to agree with terminology, but the musical purpose of "spanish phrygian" or "modo flamenco", is sound. Ancient Greeks had different meanings for the modes we use today, and Indian modal musicians obvioulsy have their own names for similar scales.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 2 2007 21:22:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: chord list (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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Good advice guitarbuddha. Mistake here?
quote:
I in Fm
did you mean V in Fm so it is C phrygian, or phrygian dominant/spanish phrygian like we have been talking about all along???
Another suggestion over that chord is C symmetric or diminished, the one that goes half-whole from C (CDbEb etc), not whole-half. And also C super locrian (Db melodic minor), mode 2 of Bb melodic minor, and mode 5 of F melodic minor. Lots of choices over the V chord. Oh also F harmonic major as discussed in the link earlier.
One more suggestion along your lines, is to go through the modes based on the Circle of 5ths, meaning you change mode bright-dark, subtracting sharps, or adding flats. I suggest you do this exercise much longer than a single bar each, so you really get the vibe. You have to change chord quality when you get to Dorian, but this the order I mean:
C lydian
C ionian
C mixolydian
C dorian (now you have C minor chord)
C aeolian
C phrygian (here use minor phrygian, but also go back to C major chord and use phrygian dominant AND spanish phrygian)
C locrian (Cminor7b5 you have to use that chord).
Then you get to sense the change of mood or color of the modes. Each one of those modes above, is like the one above or below it, just ONE note is different. ONE note changes the mood totally.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 3 2007 16:43:01
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: chord list (in reply to Guest)
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Actually no, but i was wrong too, it would be 24 ( one bar chord then on scale is two bars 1 to x and back is (x-1)times 2 7-1 times two times two is 24 .I suppose thats why its good to write things out clearly as I get a little confused trying to juggle too much in my head.
When I was writing out a sketch of how I might perform the excercised I noticed something which I think is quite interesting.
The remaining diatonic keys which are not in the excercise you suggested are Gb, B, E, A and D.
Now an andalucian cadence to B ( phrygian sharp ninth ) the C chord appears ( Em, D , C , B ) so we also have the option on B major and all of the phrygian options ( making the c chord the flat five substitute for F# dominant if we choose a major scale)
Also C appears often in flamenco as the substitute for A minor so thats por arriba taken car of too and why not throw in E major just for luck ( a very common change in pop music )
Theres also a C chord for por medio so thats taken care of.
Also the D major from our B phrygian could justify a D major scale ( althouth it would be D mixolidian in B phrygian.
Also there is the bitonal tritone substitute ( beloved of stravinsky ) for Gb. And we could see this is Gb phrygian( any variant ) or Gb major.
So there is a lot of mileage in the old C major chord.
Also in the list you suggested there is the relative minor of all of the assumed diatonic roots too which are not already described elsewhere in the list ( thats Dm, Gm, and Bb minor )
So thanks Romerito and Ricardo Ive now got a structure the next 20 years study of flamenco harmony !!!
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Date Feb. 3 2007 19:04:36
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: chord list (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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quote:
The remaining diatonic keys which are not in the excercise you suggested are Gb, B, E, A and D.
Now an andalucian cadence to B ( phrygian sharp ninth ) the C chord appears ( Em, D , C , B ) so we also have the option on B major and all of the phrygian options ( making the c chord the flat five substitute for F# dominant if we choose a major scale)
Also C appears often in flamenco as the substitute for A minor so thats por arriba taken car of too and why not throw in E major just for luck ( a very common change in pop music )
Theres also a C chord for por medio so thats taken care of.
Also the D major from our B phrygian could justify a D major scale ( althouth it would be D mixolidian in B phrygian.
Also there is the bitonal tritone substitute ( beloved of stravinsky ) for Gb. And we could see this is Gb phrygian( any variant ) or Gb major.
So there is a lot of mileage in the old C major chord.
Also in the list you suggested there is the relative minor of all of the assumed diatonic roots too which are not already described elsewhere in the list ( thats Dm, Gm, and Bb minor )
Actually, I think you are reading too much into it, pulling out of context the point of the exercise. This is like a scale or mode under a microscope. (let's exclude modes of harmonic minor and melodic minor, and symmetric scales for the moment). There are only the 7 modal functions of the C chord as I listed. The examples you give Gb, BEAD, none contain a "C natural" except when "subbing" as you described, which implies accidentals, which is just changing key. In other words, in E major, when you encounter a C chord, you are borrowing from one of these 7 modes (let me restate, I am ignoring MELODIC MINOR options for the moment). So that C chord occurs borrowed from C lydian (related to E minor. You are borrowing the bVI chord). You will find the same for all your other examples, where you are simply borrowing from one of these 3 or 4 modes for any C major chord, or 3 modes for a minor chord.
At least once you have completed this exercise, you have all the possiblities of C. (Obviously you can do this exercise for any tone in the chromatic scale).
Later you can bring into the picture modes of melodic minor (lydian dom, super loc, etc) or harmonic minor, and do a similar exercise using the circle of 5ths, or scale degrees, your choice.
Hope that makes some sense???
Ricardo
PS I also read you now you want to do rhythm on a chord THEN play the scale the next bar. So you are trading off. OK cool, I guess I mean that you do as many bars of that combo as you want for EACH mode. Do it all day long until you are bored, THEN switch scales. Point being is to really get "inside" each mode.
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Date Feb. 3 2007 20:24:38
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: chord list (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Also I'm talking about all of the possibilaties of a C chord sound and not just functioning as a tonic.
I dont like to resttict myself theoretically as...
Yeah, I know that is why I am trying to clearify a little bit. I know that you understand, I don't mean to sound patronizing or arguementative or criticizing, just so others that follow might be on page with us, but I see a couple potential confusions that might result, so I am just trying to be clear.
So I know that there are different functions for your chords, and different context, but that to me is the BIG PICTURE. The way it all ends up sounding relative to your piece as a whole, or Alegrias, or the key of "E major" or "G# phrygian" etc. I know. But the point of my exercise with the modes is much simpler. I mean for you to extract that little piece, that little passing chord moment from the big picture, and blow it out of proportion. Make it TONIC for while, and give your self time to explore the possiblities. Then when you go back to your context, or your "big picture", you will have a more educated, and hopefully intuitive, set of options. The ultimate goal being you relate a scale or mode to that brief moment that you are very familiar with and like the sound of. It might seem endless, but focus on those 7 modes at first covers quite a bit of ground.
I know that in the "big picture", adding accidentals are "colors" relative to the KEY, but again, that is why I used the term "borrowing". The colors have those feelings because of the key you are borrowing from. I don't mean you modulate the key of the piece literally, but when you zero in on the "colors", you realize WHY exactly certain "colors" (accidentals to the key, or passing chords from other keys) have certain feelings in context.
OK, just wanted that clear, so we are not really argueing, just my point of view is to FOCUS on the little pieces with my exercise recommendation.
quote:
Good point, as is with the case of Cnat and Gnat in the key of E that make a C chord or bVI and lead to the V or B. Or, C-E-G in G# phrygian-the relative phrygian to E major. You can make all kinds of observations about those chords
OK case in point. I work at first, simplest option, lowest common denominator sounds the best. Personal taste and style dictates options in the end, but here is my take on those chords. In Key of E major, the C chord is borrowed directly from E minor. Just focusing on that chord, I think C lydian. Comming from 4#'s going to 1#. You also have other options like C ionian, C mixo (one flat), but they will sound "weird" at first because you have moved so far away from the number of # you started with. Try it if you don't believe me at first. Cphrygian dominant, is even furthur away (4 flats). So for me, the choice if obvious. And you understand why after you move through the modes in the fashion I described earlier. The other choices are very "dark" and drastic jumps in "color".
Of course you can do that deliberately, maybe you like it real "dark", and after you have focused on and tonicized that poor little passing C chord you will have the tools and the personal taste to make the best choice. If I were going for melodic minor modes, I have C lydian dominant as first choice (G melodic minor) or for harmonic minor, E harmonic minor. Both my choices for the same reason above-more sharps. Now those minor scales are part of a whole different modal exercise, but I just wanted to mention them to anyone interested. Later you have your synthetic scales, like Henrik's Harmonic major, symmetric, whole tone chromatic. All cases have "lowest common denominator" option like I am describing. But I really like to start small and easy. If your music uses weird scales constantly, it will sound "wierd" or ambiguous.
Now the C chord in G# phrygian. WARNING< NERD MODE ACTIVE. (Assuming it does not go to B chord then work back to G# phrygian. In that case, see above options). Well, you are creating a chord based on enharmonic spellings (you can't have Gnat, because then you would have changed your tonic! So the chord is B#EFX). That is where you discover the circular property of keys, and why my mode exercise stops and starts on lydian/locrian. You have to becareful not to "bite your own tail". Music need not be so complex. Anyway, it is a wierd sound in context, but I would definately think of using synthetic scales on it. G# phrygian Dominant almost works, but you need that raised 7th, a common flamenco phrygian sound. I have heard it called "double harmonic", an arabic sounding scale (G#AB#C#D#EFX). Perhaps in "context", using an Am7 chord (CEG is in there) would be better to "pull" toward G# better, but it is weak. But that is my take on it anyway.
Oh one more "special function of a C chord" in G# phrygian, would be to set up a modulation, briefly, to B phrygian. Minor third modulation is common in modern flamenco, thanks to the extra note in spanish phrygian (B and B#, where the B# can function as C natural). But modally, you can see it is nothing so fancy since B phrygian relates to E major, the relative major of G# phrygian, the same way. It is "borrowed" from E minor, so again, good ol C lydian is option 1.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 4 2007 6:25:06
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: chord list (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
I was talking to a composer and he said that there was no modulation in music with drones because the drone was fixed. I totally disagree .
Actually, he is correct IMO. But you have to make a distinction of the kind of music you are talking about. MODAL music, like truely modal with a drone, you TUNE the instrument to the drone. You stick to the mode. If you try to modulate, it will literally sound "bad" and out of tune. Like the problem everyone has with tuning his G string, well you don't have that "problem" in truely modal music. You tune to only one scale, and you stick to is so it all sounds "sweet".
Equal tempered tuning was set up for the whole purpose organizing the modes into the chromatic scale so you can have tonal harmony. Western instruments can "mimic" modal music, but it is sort of fake. The way to truely immitate it, or make up for the tuning dilema, is to have static unchanging harmony. Just ONE chord or drone. If you try to modulate, you create ambiguity, or worse, loose the point of the "mode". That is sort of what my modal exercise gets at, and why you should not change to early, get used to the sound and mood. Western tonal music is all about the 5th relations and that is how you get "dominant" chords and keys and such. On equal temp instruments, there is no real sound distinction between D dorian, and ii in C major. But in truely modal music (which would not use our mode names anyway) it actually is DIFFERENT.
So anyway, flamenco has modal ideas in the singing, but the guitar kill the modality by by introducing tonal harmonies. For this reason, I think of it as a "hybrid", eastern ideas mixed with western ideas. Fandangos, phrygian tonic goes to relative major. For eastern minded folks, modality is greatly disturbed by going to major. For western minded, they can't hear phrygian as tonic. It sounds like it "hangs on the V in minor, never resolves proper". For flamenco fans, it is the combination that is the beauty.
In modern music the world is shrinking and you see modal and tonal music mixing all the time. Miles Davis "modal vamps", now mixing with ii-V-I. Shakti is an Indian group that plays modal music with western instruments like guitars and mandolins, Violin, etc. Lots of mixing, so we are getting used to different sounds and approaches. Point is, if you want truely modal, you shouldn't mix. Truely tonal music doesn't really have a "vamp in Dorian", it is just a lot of measures of the ii chord, until later it resolves where ever.
Anyway, just some other thoughts.
quote:
So the thing that connects the modes is one fixed pitch not the cycle of fifths at all.
True. But the point of my exercise WAS to keep the drone or pitch fixed, AND the order I suggested is VERY important. The point being the MOOD or color, or feeling of the modes RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER, based on the static drone C, is directly related to the circle of 5ths. At least for GUITAR and other tonal instruments. 
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 5 2007 0:49:14
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: chord list (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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One more thing. I explain modes by "vamps" too, to help folks get their ear around things. For example, D7-G vamp, or C-D7-G, or C-D7-C-G, are progressions in "G major". You could use a variety of scales for those chords, and still call it "G major".
But G ionian, would not have "D7". So Gmaj7-Cmaj7-Bm7-Cmaj7-Gmaj7 for example is G ionian, and you need to stick the those notes in the scale. G-C only also. G-Bm7, G-am7, etc all Ionian vamps, distinguished from G major as a key. Am-Dm-E, is key of A minor, and you change Scales on E obviously. But Am-G, or Am-F, or Am-G-F-G, are examples of A aeolian vamps. Distinguished from the key of "A minor". Those kind of vamps helps folks get their ear around modes verses relative keys.
And later you realize the importance of rhythm when vamp on more than one chord, so as to drive home the tonic. Again, the difference between Farucca and Tangos has to do with how the rhythm helps resolve to tonic, be it a minor key tonic, or a phrygian tonic. Just some examples. One thing bugs me in Flamenco is when guitarists Resolve Granainas to E minor, killing the B phrygian modality. That is the only "fandangos form" I know of that does it. Oh, Bamberas too I think.
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Date Feb. 5 2007 1:20:41
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trying to take my own advice. ( You see I do good hypocrisy ). 
lol.