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I must say that in my opinion the sentence "Has nothing to do with where you are from" is not true. No offence, we're into an interesting debate. I'm a young teacher-researcher in information and communication sciences and what I've learnt (but is not 100% true just because it's "my" field) is that cultures predestinate the way you communicate with others. And it's even much more clear when talking about kinetic or "body" communication. Thus what Romerito was saying is rather true for me : flamenco "on stage" requires some ways of thinking/acting-communicating that are very far from the cultural fundamentals of East Asian people. (Note I don't make reference to a "general" thinking and behaviouring in flamenco, because here I think that gypsy's fundamentals are not so far from asian's fundamentals - be humble, not speak too much, respect the olders, think for the brother/sister before thinking for you, preserve your honor at all costs, etc...).
So I guess in the end, we could say that the "scenic presence " of this attaching little group is partly due to their lack of scenic experience (and perhaps to a too much "academic-oriented" flamenco learning - same problem as most foreigners in flamenco?) but also partly to their cultural background, that is to say to an East Asian cultural background... (and another part to their own character, but we can't say anything without knowing them). For sure you'll find exemples of inexperienced people with a great scenic presence and East-Asian people having no problem to take "por alante" scene front, shouting jaleos, etc. But these would probably be "exceptions which confirm the rule"...
Thus what Romerito was saying is rather true for me : flamenco "on stage" requires some ways of thinking/acting-communicating.......
I also agree. "on stage" is something different. I mean .....imagine an african guy yodeling ........or an amercian woman performing GEISHA dancing !! ........or me Break dancing LoL.... You know what i mean ?
Tanaka is a good example of someone who knows how to play well and comports him self differently when performing than even a spaniard that is not confident or shy because he is not so secure. He has confidence that is all, doesn't matter that he is Asian or not. As mentioned earlier, Javier Conde is a shy guy too when performing, even though he is good. Manolo Sanlucar is another who just looks at the fingerboard when playing, not much stage antics. Yamashita jumps out of his chair when playing.
If you want to say the guys in the first vid have certain personal mannerisms due to being Japanese fine, but I am just saying that they are not strong players and that is the reason for their lack of charisma on stage. If you want to blame their cultural background on their lack of charisma, you would have to prove to me that these guys are seasoned performers, which I suspect they are not. I may be inclined to go along with this type of stereo typing if these guys were playing as good as someone like Tanaka, but they are not on his level. So I am sticking with my idea that they are just shy and un confident, just like anyone might be from anywhere in the world that is at their same level and experience.
If either guy were your student, would you try to get them to play stronger and more confidently, or would you just let them go on like this and say "well, for you it is good enough, since you ARE japanese after all"? I think playing this "culture card" is a lame excuse.
Ricardo
PS, if the palmero doesn't get it together soon he should consider hari cari.
let me start off by saying its dangerous to generalize. now let me generalize: many asian cultures do not vaule displays of emotion, especially by men. that's considered a weakness. repression of public emotion and being stoical is a very male concept of strength. also the cultural difference between places with a culture is huge. in shanghai in the south, people are friendly, boisterious, loud, and engaging. in beijing, i've found the people there really closed down and sullen looking. my friends and i have often remarked on how beautiful beijing women would be if they all just stopped scowling and started smiling.
that being said, if you look at asian popular music (pop to metal), they are imitating the western performers so are much more emotive in their performances. death metal is getting huge in china and hong kong! asian classical performers are becoming more western and more expressive too.
the people in this video are just wooden beyond belief. but they do remind me of being in beijing. a friend also said that people in beijing reminded them exactly of people in moscow.
on a side note, did you know that there is no concept of irony in japan? my friend (a japanese born in the states) married a japanese national and she had trouble understanding his sarcasm. he tried explaining and showing her examples and she said, "when you're being sarcastic, why don't you just wave your hands in the air." he said, "that's it exactly!" but found out she was being serious.
oh also, there is the difference between a musical performance and melodrama like opera, plays, folk plays or soap operas. at least in korea, japan and china, when melodrama is expected and required like in a tragic opera or soap opera, watch out cuz the men and women will cry like niagara!
While I understand the cultural points being made, I have to agree with Ricardo that the vibe being put out is consistant with a lack of confidence and experience. I mean look at the palmero-it's like someone taught him to stomp his foot on one and then clap three times five minutes before the gig. He hasn't learned how to swing it at all. The guitarists simplify some of the faster alzapua parts and also completely fall apart at one point. These guys are YOUNG players-talented but relatively new to the music and performing. Charming it is, but their wooden performance has way more to do with their level than their culture IMO.
These guys are YOUNG players-talented but relatively new to the music and performing.
I was going to say that too, but I don't like to speculate on ages. I have been way off when guessing ages of some asians and indians from south america.
for the record, there are plenty of americans that don't get MY sarcasm either, it is not just an asian problem. It is like you are either riding that wave, or you are not. Most folks that meet me when i am sober, think I am super serious.
Also, regarding asians who are brought up to hide "emotions", mainly you must be refering to sensative feelings like pain and sadness. You don't see tears. But Anger? sure. As a foreignor, I see "anger" all the time in asian films. And that is a powerful emotion. As an american male, I don't ever cry in front of others or show that kind of vulnerability, but that has NOTHING to do with playing guitar, performing on stage, like these guys we are ragging on. If anything, they ARE displaying "weakness" as you say do to lack of confidence.
Damn reading this post has made me realize how weak i am
I am an emotional mess, if a girl turns down my "Lets go to bed" line, i drop to the floor kicking and screaming and crying then as she tryes to walk away because shes embarrased (cause people are starring) she has to drag me on the floor because i have locked on to her legs while crying out " -NOO NOOoo " in the end they all realize its just eazyer
I wouldnt last a day in Beijing, id probably have a 6 year old boy com up to me and say " Tsk cmon Be a man , stop crying"
More "Asian Flamenco", but this time not in the concert hall, but in the railway station!:
Is it the same guys? Coz its the same user, who uploaded them. Checkout the guy with the Keyboard in his... mouth. At 3:28 something magic happens. They have a very "del Gastoresque" style.
Oh the guy with the keyboard can also play guitar. But in a very weird position, sitting without a chair:
They seem to have fun. And some of the "audience" too. Does anything else matters?
Wow, this is a good bulerias performance. At 2:27 they experiment with those Asian or chinese melodies... those traditional ones in quarters or quints. It sounds very good and interesting imo.
One point that seems to be missed here, or maybe I just was too lazy to read every post:
Regardless of the flaws and or what is lacking from the performance, I think people should be applauding the effort involved. As someone who has spent several years in South Korea and found a complete dearth of interest in flamenco there, I really wish I could find the kind of things that are going on in Japan. Thankfully they at least are willing to try something outside of their cultural and societal norms. How I wish I could find someone who even knows what flamenco is, let alone be willing to study it in a serious way. What I wouldn't give to be able to jam with those people for a couple of days....
I just returned from California. I had the great opportunity to stay with and hang out and jam with Jose Tanaka. He is a great guy with cool musical ideas, and very similar tastes and concepts to mine regarding cante accompaniment, and accompaniment in general. Also we had a similar rock guitar background, in fact he admitted moving to hollywood from Japan to study electric guitar with Paul Gilbert, my guitar hero as a teen.
The reason I bring it up in THIS thread is because I was specifically asked to have a special meeting with Jose by our mutual friends, people that we both have worked in flamenco independently from each other. The reason? Apparently there were some bad misconceptions on my thoughts of Asian players and specifically HIS playing, based on supposed comments I have made on the internet. I could not recall anything, and my own feelings not knowing jose AT ALL, were just memories of videos and that he was a fantastic player. I searched my comments regarding him and Asians, and found this thread.
Reviewing my comments, I still can't understand why one would misinterpret my points, and in fact I thought it was clear I was saying Jose was a good example of an Asian that was NOT a stiff player, and in fact very advanced and charismatic. The first group were a lower level, so I did not, and still dont' think it fair, to blame their racial background on their lack of stage confidence. To me Romerito seemed to be saying, with his japanese wife's blessing, that those guys were stiff because they are asians, not just because they were nervous and lacking confidence. I was saying the opposite of that....and somehow, it seems, this all got BACK to jose as "Ricardo does not respect asian guitarists".
I am just curious if anyone has any info regarding this misunderstanding? (Romerito? ) It is actually very serious thing to me to be misunderstood when it affects me and my professional and personal relationships.
I like what they are playing.. but the guy doing the palmas just don't have the energy like others i have seem.. none of the "oomph!" I like the guitars tho..
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