RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

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[Poll]

NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

after playing for baile 10 years and cante ten years

8% (3)

Once they have mastered compas

13% (5)

once they have mastered all flamenco techniques and compas

16% (6)

once they play 'la cucaracha' and yell ole at the end

13% (5)

when they play with true aire

22% (8)

when they can play 'la feria' just like juan martin

5% (2)

once theyve ripped off a car with some gypsies

5% (2)

once they wear the frilly shirts and sing 'po dom pom pom'

2% (1)

once they become a 'guiri in denial'

0% (0)

after completing a 16 hour shift in the captain beefcakes factory

11% (4)

Total Votes : 36

(last vote on : Dec. 23 2015 16:38:33)

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Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

You can call yourself a flamencoguitarrist, when you can strum a rumba and earn your money with that. If you are only able to do that, you would be a damn bad flamenco-guitarrist, but you definetely are one.

To the question what is flamenco-guitar-playing:

Its strumming a special kind of a guitar with your fingers. You can be more or less advanced, but thats it. Nothing more. So.. in that case,.. Juan Marin .. is ... is a flamenco-guitarrist.... . .

.. hmm..however....ok all important things are said,.. you can close he threat now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2006 17:20:06

Reece

Posts: 21
Joined: Oct. 31 2006

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

If the question is "when can someone say they are a flamenco guitarist", the answer is surely "it doesn't matter".

Does it matter? At all?

I don't think so. Having fun is the bottom line.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2006 17:38:11

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

For some people the label "flamenco guitarist" is a way to sell something that is everything else but flamenco, and they arent even trying to even get the basics right, but still wants to use this label to make money.

And im sure they have a lot of fun when they manage to pull that off and then look at their bank accounts.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2006 17:50:43

Reece

Posts: 21
Joined: Oct. 31 2006

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Even that doesn't matter. We can still do what we do and enjoy it just as much.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2006 18:28:21

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Sure, but thats how spanish guitarists would define it in case anyone is interested

quote:

When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist? -> When they can accompany cante and baile, and play solo too.

To quote our spanish member david83 here from paco´s forum.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2006 18:41:48

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

So.. in that case,.. Juan Marin .. is ... is a flamenco-guitarrist

yes even tho he is a bit of a con man and i dont likey his music and he has a bad technique...hmmm very bad, i would stiiil call him a flamenco guitarist. A bad flamenco guitarist but a flamenco guitarist nonetheless.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 5:54:04

Reece

Posts: 21
Joined: Oct. 31 2006

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Juan Martin isn't a "bad" flamenco guitarist. You may not like his playing, or his music, or his ethos, but saying he is bad is just silly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 15:26:27

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Ill have to agree there, ive heard him play beautifully and with incredible tone. The funny thing is that he looks like he doesnt know what he is doing while doing it, but i wouldnt knock him as a flamenco guitarist even if i might not like his taste at times.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 15:34:29

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

Juan Martin isn't a "bad" flamenco guitarist.

It depends on which standard was used to rate him. Its subjective, so dont take it too seriously. Without a matter its not very nice to call him bad. Thats right. But you have to differ between jokes and serious statements.
Juan Martin ist bad. He´s ok.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 15:40:31

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Yeah, the definition "flamenco guitarist" has nothing to do with taste or level. I think david83 summed it up nicely in one sentence.

quote:

When they can accompany cante and baile, and play solo too.

You could be a lousy accompanist and play completely tasteless solos and still be a flamencoguitarist. A bad one, but still...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 15:47:32

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Beeing able to play for dance and singing are only tools to get good compas and know typic chords and progressions. Its not important to be a good singers musicbox-slave during a so called "juerga". Just use it to become a beter guitarrist but not a slave. Just my opinion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:10:04

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

I am with Recce, man who cares lol

most of the people we would incidentaly ever get to label oursefs in front of dont even care or know, first thing i always say is , I am a Musicean or guitarist then they ask what kind and I say Flamenco, most often i dont wanna take a chance with someone who dosent know (normaly people in clubs) I say Spanish guitar.

i know its not the same but i dont spend half an hour trying to educate em in a loud club. And first thing that goes to theyr head is THE Malaguena theme lol

so if the majority of people we would ever label ourselfs to dont care or know then who are we talking about ? what do we label ourselfs to ourselfs ?

I find that when someone askes what u do, to answer that to answer " I am a flamenco guitarist" its pretentious, even if u are.

Like if i asked a girl what she does and she says " I am a bikiny model" the more tactfull aproach would have been " I am in fashion".

dont ask me why i think like this , i just do, mibe cause us australians hate taking ourselfs too seriously.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:25:27

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

It matters in all other professions, if you would define a car mechanic you would expect him to be able to fix your car and a doctor to be able to figure out whats wrong with you and to prescribe something to cure it.

What makes it so different in this case?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:33:15

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

only difference is that both this professions are defined by a piece of paper, unlike flamenco.

the criteria its alot more clear.

i mean once u passed the exam , u are a docter or a mechanic.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:38:33

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Id say its defined by what you would expect that person to be able to do. I wouldnt care if a car mechanic had any papers, but i would care if he could fix my car or not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:40:01

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

would u go to a docter with no papers ?

just caring that he will fix u or not

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:41:18

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

would u go to a docter with no papers ?

I wouldnt ask for his credetials id just expect him to be able to do what doctors do. Just as a dancer or singer would who hired a flamenco guitarist for a gig.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:42:46

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

lol , u wouldnt ask him because u know that to work as a docter someone else has allready made sure he had the diploma, and does what hes sopossed to do.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:46:20

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

Just as a dancer or singer would who hired a flamenco guitarist for a gig.

no singer or dancer hires a guitarist without knowing what they do or not having heard em before, atlist not here.

if they hired u , they have allready made theyr mind up that u can do what they need u to do.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:48:50

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Yes, but just as a doctor without a diploma, a person calling themselves flamenco guitarist and cant do the job, would lose customers fast.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:49:46

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

no singer or dancer hires a guitarist without knowing what they do or not having heard em before, atlist not here.

It happens a lot here that spanish dancers and singers come up here without knowing who they are going to work with and with a minimum of rehearsals have to do a gig with them.

I played with one singer from granada who didnt want to rehearse until one hour before the gig and i didnt know what palos he was going to do, and i have a feeling that he didnt either. And i just talked to him on the phone a day before that, and i never met him before.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 17:53:03

Reece

Posts: 21
Joined: Oct. 31 2006

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Music is an art, a luxury, an option. Comparing a musician to a mechanic or a doctor doesn't really achieve much. Some things are objective and some are subjective, and there is a huge difference between the two.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 18:04:38

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Flamenco guitarist is a part job, part art, its not something the least vague.

The job part is what you do for dancers and singers, so they can do their art and you get to express your art in terms of falsetas and solos in between.

Of course there are guitarists who specialize in song or dance accompaniment or soloists but they could do the other parts too if they had to.

A lot of soloists dont play to dance because it might ruin their hands, so soloists usually only accompany singing when they arent playing solos.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 18:11:05

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

I played with one singer from granada who didnt want to rehearse until one hour before the gig

At least he wanted to rehearse at all.

But sonikete, I get your point, and you are right, people should know their job if they descrbe themselves as a "guitarist singer or dancer". But I feel you mean more that these folks need to deliver as pros. I think "flamenco guitarist" does not have to be professional.

A maestro of accompanying singers only, would have a hard time accomp. baile, depending on who it is. Certainly would not want to rehearse and memorize choreography and such. You call him, he comes, and can't really do the best job. But that does not mean he is not a "flamenco guitarist". Perhaps the concert promotor wants a few guitar solos before the main show starts, but he has no repertoire, only accompanies singers, again, maybe they hired the "wrong" flamenco guitarist.

I think that is more Florian's point.

And his point carries over to singing and dance. "We need a singer for the show next week so I got.....". You don't really know how good it is until you either rehearse, juerga, or get on stage. And then it is already too late.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 18:28:25

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

I think "flamenco guitarist" does not have to be professional.

Sure, i dont mean that it has to be on a very high or professional level as i said in a previous post. And there are specialized guitarists for song and dance, who focus on doing one thing good.

And i didnt really rehearse that hour before, he just asked me to play something so he could see what level i was on.

And there are singers who cant sing patrás or in compás and specialize in levante palos for example or singers who only sing solea, bulerias and tangos.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 18:33:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

And there are singers who cant sing patrás or in compás and...

Agreed. And are they still "flamenco"? The key word being "Can't".

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:12:41

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Yes, but in my world flamenco is singing whatever the limitations of the singer.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:14:07

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Seems to me if you post to the forum a piece of music, and everybody says "that's a fine piece of flamenco music" then you are, but if Paco says "that sucks", then you're not. Probably the context is the determinant.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:14:27

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Doitsujin)

What im trying to get to is that flamenco is a social culture, like this;

Where you have different ways of expressing that culture, one being guitar. And if you dont come from that culture the least one can do is respect their traditions, values and definitions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:19:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Yes, but in my world flamenco is singing whatever the limitations of the singer.

We can all draw our "flamenco lines" where we want. I know things become an arguement because of this. I just like to know where folks stand, I don't mind how they feel. What I am gathering from this and what you said earlier, that you would say, a BAD singer, is more "flamenco" just because he sings, than a descent flamenco guitar soloist or dancer?

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2006 19:27:14