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sonikete
Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden
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RE: Jose tanaka (in reply to Guest)
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I thought he played well, but had a tendency to rush in the bulerias i heard, but that might be an intentional way of putting energy into it. I guess if he played with another guitarist who was slightly behind the beat they might compensate each other. I found an interesting but, somewhat dry, site about microtiming for anyone interested in the subject: quote:
I have experienced one of the most interesting musical revelations of my life, gradually over the last several years, in studying West African dance-drumming and in playing jazz, hip-hop and funk. The revelation was that the simplest repetitive musical patterns could be imbued with a universe of expression. quote:
Bilmes (1993) conducted a timing analysis of a recorded performance of Los Muñequitos de Matanzas, an Afro-Cuban rumba group [CD-37]. In a performance averaging 110 beats per minute (such that what would be a notated sixteenth note lasts around 135 milliseconds), both the quinto and the segundo (lead and middle conga drum, respectively) tend to play about 30 milliseconds ahead, or "on top." http://www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/People/Vijay/06.%20Microtiming%20Studies.html
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Date Nov. 16 2006 21:25:28
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Ricardo
Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Jose tanaka (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
both the quinto and the segundo (lead and middle conga drum, respectively) tend to play about 30 milliseconds ahead, or "on top." They "tend" to? That is pretty vague. Relative to who? Did they record with a click reference? I might be inclined to say they also tend to rush, but I would not know unless I heard it or was in the group. Perhaps they felt dragging going on and wanted to keep everyone in line. Relative to the draging they heard, their beat might have felt right on. But I would say, since they did not do it invariably, that they probably meant to play right on time. The point of practicing with a metronome, is to play right smack on time as much as you are capable. Practice being off time a hair, I don't really get it? Practice like that, and you certainly will be off time. People who always rush are always on top of the beat too. Folks who drag down the time, are always a hair late. That is the way it works. People right on time, tend to stay on time. Dynamics and swing can help express "aggressive" or "laid back" feeling, better than playing a hair late or early. Ricardo
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Date Nov. 17 2006 5:46:01
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sonikete
Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden
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RE: Jose tanaka (in reply to Guest)
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Well microtiming might be a useless concept for some people, its not useless for me however and not for a lot of latin and african drummusic. And if you are uninterested in the subject, i have a piece of advice; dont read it! quote:
They "tend" to? That is pretty vague. Relative to who? Did they record with a click reference? I might be inclined to say they also tend to rush, but I would not know unless I heard it or was in the group. Perhaps they felt dragging going on and wanted to keep everyone in line. Relative to the draging they heard, their beat might have felt right on. But I would say, since they did not do it invariably, that they probably meant to play right on time. The point of practicing with a metronome, is to play right smack on time as much as you are capable. Practice being off time a hair, I don't really get it? Practice like that, and you certainly will be off time. If you read the article there are more examples and a detailed description of the example i cited. For me microtiming is sort of rhythmic dynamics, it is like gravity and i use it when i play and this was just an academic study of this. Other people dont use it, and i wouldnt really care either way. Im not preaching about it.
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Date Nov. 17 2006 15:27:34
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Ricardo
Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Jose tanaka (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
On the other hand, the tumbao (low conga drum) had a much broader distribution, nearly as often late as early. It should be noted that here the precise moment of the beat was not determined by the norm set by these three instruments themselves, as it was in the case of the string trio. Rather, the beat was established by a reference instrument, in this case a clave or a guagua. This is the part I was looking for. Says it all to me. And also notice how his example of T. Monk playing "laid back" made the listeners laugh because it was so off. I am not saying it is not done, I am just saying it is ok for a soloist to do this OCCASIONALLY. But a rhythm section? sorry, I hope folks are not PRACTICING to do this on purpose. Purhaps imperfection IS human or adds human touch of life to an ensemble, but practicing that intentionally??? I said before the soloist, the ADVANCED soloist who already is perfect, can mess around, but knowing he needs his back up to be SOLID as a rock. You won't see dancers doing this to there accompanists, since tempo change is so important in flamenco. The only time I have heard this done intentionally by a flamenco, was paco's falseta on Cigala's latest. He does that phrase for a compas and a half at like 1:28-1:34, where he plays on the beat, but drags it so it is "late" or "lazy" or "laid back". It threw me off at first. He is trying to be jazzy, but it is very weird for flamenco style to me. Of course he goes right back to being tight for the rest. But I dont' recommend students to be practicing like this! How come I don't hear about any studies of guys that play darn perfect all the time, and still give "aggressive" or "laid back feeling"? Ricardo
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Date Nov. 18 2006 21:20:44
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Ricardo
Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Jose tanaka (in reply to duende)
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Thanks for finding those interesting articles Henrik. Tigerbill said: quote:
And while it's true that no human can keep a tempo as steady as a machine, a tempo that varies noticeably will quickly destroy any groove. Sorry but I dont' agree with the first part. Again check out that Paco DVD and there you have 3 guys doing it together, pretty close to machine like. Second part of the sentence is right on. And he gives good advice in general about using the metronome to practice. The Jazz rhythm article, again, fine for jazz SOLOISTS playing scales and stuff, but I have trouble with statement. "after a certain degree of accuracy of pulse is established....". Um, don't you think the student should be a little more rock solid before trying to be "loose" or play around with the "micro time" of the metronome? I would think so, otherwise there is a danger of the student thinking he is really good and playing ahead or behind deliberately, when in fact he could not keep a rock solid beat if he needed to. Dangerous IMO for a student. In general, I think this an easy way for someone to make excuses for not being dead on. But don't forget, the guy is talking about mainly using the click as TWO or FOUR of the measure, to get used to playing to the snare. If you just think about it for a minute, you can play the beat in different ways to make the click mean different things. Especially if you are swinging. But by putting the downbeats early, you make the up beat click SOUND like it is a bit late or "in the pocket" or laid back, or swinging if you want. But that does not mean you are litterly playing ON TOP of the beat. It means you are redefining the beat relative to the click. Big difference to me. So I dont' need to go on and on about this, my point is don't mess around unless you really KNOW you are rock solid. And don't mess around with this stuff in flamenco compas. Learn to keep a beat first. (not talking about swinging contras, I talked about THAT already!). Ok, peace, I am off this "rubberband" topic. Ricardo
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Date Nov. 20 2006 3:38:09
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: Jose tanaka (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Ricardo: "after a certain degree of accuracy of pulse is established....". Um, don't you think the student should be a little more rock solid before trying to be "loose" or play around with the "micro time" of the metronome? I would think so, otherwise there is a danger of the student thinking he is really good and playing ahead or behind deliberately, when in fact he could not keep a rock solid beat if he needed to. Dangerous IMO for a student. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the idea is to learn the basics of tempo, and then learn the limits of the tempo so that you can better feel your way around it. If you learn where the outer limits are, and you learn to precisely play on top of, or behind the beat, then you must certainly be able to play precisely in the middle. I shouldn't think there would be any excused to be made. And "certain degree" is somewhat unclear, maybe his certain degree approximates yours, or maybe he is in fact stricter? We don't know.
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Date Nov. 20 2006 21:08:17
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