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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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 RE: GUITAR PRICES-HOW HIGH IS TOO HIGH (in reply to Guest)
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The true comparison is not between a CD and a guitar, but what a top-level luthier makes a top-level flamenco. I have calculated that our most successful flamenco guitarist in town probably makes about $60,000 a year or so. I could be way off, because it's just what I've added up. To equal that, you would probably have to sell 20 $5000 guitars a year, due to overhead and materials. Now think what it must take to rustle up $60K worth of gigs; it's a career just like it might take to rustle up 20 customers a year for expensive rare guitars. I don't see what the problem is, since they're both making about the same type of cash.
Of course, neither of these professions are valued to any degee in America. In America, we pay for what we truly value, and what we truly value are doctors, lawyers, and businessmen. A lawyer who graduates near the top of their class will make well over $100K in this town. This is simply a geek who's good at memorizing and logic who spent an extra 3 years in school. Nowhere near the level of accomplishment and work and networking it would take to reach the level of the luthier or the guitarist. And he's still making 66% more---fresh out of college!
We have CEOs who are being paid $100 mil a year, we never even hear their names but they are the real robber barons in this country. Paul McCartney doesn't make close to that kind of cash, and he was bigger than God at one time!
Few things are fair, but the compensation of top luthiers and musicians seem pretty equivalent to me.
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Date Nov. 1 2006 15:40:54
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: GUITAR PRICES-HOW HIGH IS TOO HIGH (in reply to Guest)
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Romerito,
I paid $3500 for my guitar, and I like it a lot. But it could be better, or at least, it could be better for me. I think a lot of this is just what suits you personally. For example, if you play concerts maybe you need a really booming guitar, if you like to play a lot of intricate parts maybe you would like a guitar with a smoother left hand. For example, in the classical world, the Ramirezes are infamous for being huge, sounding great, but being beasts to play.
I played a Keith Vizcarra guitar once (as I am sure you have), and it was my favorite ever. It was years ago and it was the first flamenco he ever made--Chuscales played it for awhile. The notes just jumped right out of that thing, man! Dry, flamenco sound, easy to play, loud. But that was awhile ago and my tastes and knowledge have changed sicne then. I think he's charging $7K nowadays.
There are some people who claim that the best guitars are over 30 years old. It's like a magic number they say, when a guitar really starts to sound fine. I haven't tried it out, but it's possible at least. If I did get some money, I would probably buy a 30 year old guitar and see what happens. I bought my classical in '91, so it's half way there :) It does have a nice sound.
I think that if I could buy a guitar right now, without having the benefit of trying out a ton, I would get one of those Aaron Greens. I play some flamenco, some classical, some South American, so I want a pure tone, clarity, and a fast neck. From what I've heard, he makes a great product (and he is a good guy too). Unfortunately, I think his stuff is up there at 8K or so.
It's a bit of a funny situation that the top luthiers make guitars that only collectors and top guitarists can afford. There's a whole bunch of pretty good guitarists that would be well served by finer instruments but can't and probably wohn't be able to afford them. On the other hand, over time we have a bit of an advantage in evaluating what guitar will serve us best, as long as we keep our ears and minds open, because we are spending so much time with the instrument, and perfecting ourselves.
I hope this spiel is somewhat interesting or useful to you :)
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Date Nov. 1 2006 15:55:26
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: GUITAR PRICES-HOW HIGH IS TOO HIGH (in reply to Guest)
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Romerito,
don't forget the effects of inflation here in America. A lot of our goods are cheap because of Chinese imports and the fact that they sell them below cost, but the truth is we are in the midst of a horrible inflationary spiral. Housing prices, perhaps the biggest overall expense, have gone through the roof! You can't get a new car under $10,000, no Yugos anymore. Gas and energy has gone up and have you looked at cell phone bills lately. Everything is twice as expensive and that's one reason guitars are... also remember that the Euro jacked up prices of Spanish guitars.
Incidentally, Patrick tells me that Tezanos Perez guitars (the one I play), are highly overpriced because of weird Japanese obsessiveness. So perhaps the $3500 I paid was fair, not the $7000 that they are going for new!
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Date Nov. 1 2006 17:39:52
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flamencoguru
Posts: 271
Joined: Jun. 30 2004
From: West Palm Beach, Florida USA
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RE: GUITAR PRICES-HOW HIGH IS TOO HIGH (in reply to Guest)
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Very interesting post. I personally think luthiers deserve every penny they earn. They put long hours into the art (not to say that guitarists don't). I know a few well know luthiers and they spend a lot of time along trying to make the perfect instrument to satisfy our needs and desires. My hat is off to them. I'll gladly pay $5000 for a top quality guitar. Hell, I'd pay twice that if I could afford it. I'm not complaining because I hired a violist to record a part for a recording I'm doing and her viola was $40,000 and her bow was $15,000. Is it a rip off.....no, it is what she was willing to pay for a quality viola and bow.
Is a guitar worth $5000? Is a Picasso painting worth $3,000,000? Is a Bentley worth $300,000. Is it right that Puff Daddy has made millions upon millions? It's what you're willing to pay and who's will to sell.
Remember, luthier's are artists too.
Un saludo, Errol
P.S. I have no problem spending $20 on a CD if I really like it. I've paid much more.
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Date Nov. 1 2006 17:43:38
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: GUITAR PRICES-HOW HIGH IS TOO HIGH (in reply to Guest)
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Ramin,
not only does my wife agree with me, she's the person who taught it to me! :)
But in a way you're right, the big firm lawyers do make over $100K, but they also work over 80. Seriously. So really they're just doing two jobs making a somewhat average $50k. One of our friends here worked for Steptoe and Johnson (now she's inhouse for Walmart--*puke*), and she would pull an allnighter every week. Yes, once a week she would work 24hrs straight. She didn't make partner and got pushed out after 8 yrs.
Lawyers have to have great tolerance of tedium, ability to focus, and ability to work with great endurance. And you are right that I couldn't hack it as one; I would go crazy. But ditchdiggers and construction workers and people in Mexico work just as hard and sacrifice their bodies, not just their minds, so I'm not going to say the lawyers have it that bad.
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Date Nov. 1 2006 21:20:39
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Nylonnewbie
Posts: 5
Joined: Oct. 15 2006
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RE: GUITAR PRICES-HOW HIGH IS TOO HIGH (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Easy on the ditchdiggers Miguel  I'm a construction worker who digs ditches for pipelines so we can all have water to drink, wash our clothes and take showers. That nets me around 75 to $80,000 a year at 40 hrs a week. All jokes aside.... I wouldn't work 80 hrs a week for any amount of money, that's way to much time out of someones life.......sheesh! People think being a lawyer is some high and mighty position in life, truth is, most of them are trying to figure out how to twist the laws to help get someone avoid trouble. Well, not in every case, but you know what I mean. I'd rather be poor and happy, then rich, drive a Porsche and have an empty hole in my heart from living a plastic life.........know what I mean? 
It's all good.........By the way, I like and respect your music.
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Date Nov. 2 2006 1:35:17
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: GUITAR PRICES-HOW HIGH IS TOO HIGH (in reply to Guest)
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No disrespect meant to the ditch-diggers... I meant it in a generic way of someone who works with his hands for little pay, such as day laborers or landscapers. We have a lot of those here in Phoenix and I think they may be lucky to get $50 a day. I think $75k is a nice chunk of change and a tidy way to raise a family. Of course, with home and college prices these days, who knows how far that's going to go!
I don't envy the big firm lawyers one bit; in fact, I pity them. My wife and I rarely hang out with other lawyers because we just don't have anything in common. I'm a longhair and she works out of the home and is a jeweler (www.kikcustom.com, where my CD is available :) Also pictures of me modeling) .
It's just strange to talk to these people who are like little worker bees, staring at legal briefs for 80 hours a week in their 8-year quest to become partner. If they don't make it in 8 years, they get pushed out, become bitter and claim they quit to focus on quality of life. I mean, they put their jobs above family, art, pleasure, justice--what the hell are we going to talk about?
I'm all for people like Nylonnewb making an honest living and getting paid well for it!
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Date Nov. 2 2006 3:09:50
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: GUITAR PRICES-HOW HIGH IS TOO HIGH (in reply to Guest)
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Ricardo
Well, the main reason is that not long ago, spanish guitars were made mostly in Spain, and Spain was very poor and prices very low. Guitarbuilders lived of building guitars for Spanish players with little money., so prices were low. Take a look at prices in the 70th. Thats the historical factor
Another reason that guitars are cheaper than other professional instruments is that they dont last as long. They loose tension in the soundboard and its very difficult or impossible to recover that tension.
In violin family instruments you can recover tension quite easily. First of all they dont loose that tension because of the scooped out soundboard and back and you can quite easily remove the soundboard and replace the G-bar (the only bar in a violin, cello etc.)
On a flamenco guitar this is even more crucial because the construction is even softer than a classical or steel string guitar, and you cant imagine how many beaten out flamenco guitars I´ve seen, also from very famous makers. They were just dead  But they had served a good deal of playing.
Back to this with prices and from a luthier point of view. For me its a difficult subject. I would like to raise my prices in order to move into a decent house , but at the same time I dont want to loose contact with players, and here in Spain young kids have little money..... So at the moment I stay where I am and will just raise my prices following house prices. That´s some 15% a year.
Besides, I´m quite OK. Doing what I like and living in Andalucia having enogh money to eat and drink and drive an old beaten Renault. Some people say thats what flamenco is all about. 
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Date Nov. 2 2006 11:37:24
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aarongreen
Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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RE: GUITAR PRICES-HOW HIGH IS TOO HIGH (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Not to be contrary but I have to disagree with Anders on the topic of longevity and guitars. The two main factors that determine the lifespan of a guitar is how it was built and how it was cared for. I see many guitars that have design and execution issues that will directely affect the lifespan of the instrument. The first and foremost is the glue used, anything other than hide glue makes most repairs almost impossible. A lot of builders in search for volume also underbuild their guitars IMO.
I also see a lot of guitars come around with problems that have been compounded by years of being ignored. Two famous guitars in my shop right now have serious structural issues that started as simple hairline cracks. The owners didn't think they were serious, well they sure are now. Something as simple as maintaining proper humidity can make all the difference.
From a design point of view, a fan braced top is going to be easier to deal with than lattice or double tops etc. If the guitar is constructed with hide glue and the top needs to be taken off and rebraced, well it can be done. I have done it and the results were well worth the effort. Vilolin family instruments have survived due to similar efforts over the years. It ain't cheap so if the instrument isn't worth it, then the instrument does not survive.
I have played many guitars that were well over 40 years old that are doing just fine, the 53 Barbero for example. La Bon Bon, which is a Santos that he built for himself in 1903 was in perfect condition when I saw it 10 years ago. Many Hausers Fletas and Bouchets that I have played were built many years ago are still in service and doing very well. Again, if the instrument is well made and well taken care of, it should survive for many generations.
I was once told that the lifespan of an orchestral harp is 10 to 15 years. The string load on those things is somewhere around 30,000 pounds and they cost a whole lot more than guitars. An orchestra gig pays pretty well, I am guessing.
In terms of guitar pricing, it is what it is. I build every guitar as if it were my last. I take good care of my clients during, before and after the sale and have a fairly broad spread of prices, even though in reality the work and effort is pretty much the same for every guitar I make. If I break it down to an hourly wage, I make much less than most people I know. Actually I don't have to do that, I take home much less than most people I know. Not that I am complaning, I knew what I was getting myself into.
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Date Nov. 2 2006 13:31:15
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