Flamenco & Improvisation

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alien

Posts: 1
Joined: Oct. 15 2006
From: Switzerland

Flamenco & Improvisation

Hello,

I'm playing jazz now since 20 years and since December 2005 I'm exercising finger style. In jazz I did not find the way or an idea/concept I like after listening to jazz solo guitar playing because the right hand in jazz is very often quite limited. So I started searching for other music styles.

On YouTube I've found other resources and I did see and hear them flamenco guitar players working with the right hand and ... wow... that's it. Thats what I was looking for. I've bought some books about the flamenco right hand techniques and did exercise like a lunatic.

After istening to Vicente Amigo and Pedro Sierra I have got a virus or something. As I have missed something all of these years. I started playing as a young boy in the age of 9 and had, guess what ... classical flamenco lessons for four years. After this I fell in love with jazz learned all self-taught, never had a teacher again and just forgot what I've learned as a boy there. Now I got this damned virus and I wish I had more listened to this teacher.

So I'm here now, knowing a lot about jazz and improvisation and I'm wondering how this is done in flamenco. Is there improvisation? Paco tells on his video (light & shade) that he uses improvisation, but I never found others telling this. Vicente plays his tunes live the same way he recorded it so there is no big improvisation issue there. I did not found a improvisation concept like there is in jazz. Having a form, chords, progressions, a tune. It seems to me that the compas is the base and all other things look quite variable. Are there some informations out there about improvisation in flamenco?

When I play in compas e.g. a bulerias I use some little licks I've transcribed and then I play my jazz crap as I feel it. Just staying in the compas and using jazz progressions, chords within a flamenco idiom (sound like as I could do it

). So for me it works fine and it sounds quite flamenco. But I guess that approach might be wrong for flamenco.

Are there ressources out there comparing jazz and flamenco techniques? Does somebody of the guitar players here have jazz influences as well? How does this work?

I did some recordings, hosted on http://www.bebop.ch/musik/solo.htm in spring this year. If you like to see some videos it's here: http://www.bebop.ch/musik/videos.htm. All this stuff is recorded about 4 month after starting the finger style exercises.

I'm exercising like hell (4-8 hours a day, sometimes more) so I might be further with the technique now. Does somebody have tipps for me how to get more into the flamenco direction using my jazz background?

Are there examples of jazz and flamenco collaborated?

_____________________________

I'm a legal alien, don't even have a style I'm playing in ...
http://www.bebop.ch

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2006 10:42:35

Mark2

Posts: 1882
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Flamenco & Improvisation (in reply to alien)

www.cdbaby.com/cd/ajourney

More jazz than flamenco..........good players though

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2006 19:20:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14881
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco & Improvisation (in reply to alien)

Hi. I have some experience with jazz and I play flamenco professionally. I would not feel comfy sitting in with a jazz combo if I did not know the chart well, but I would not be scared to try.

Anyway, there IS improvisation in flamenco, though the concept is different than jazz. The improv happens purely on the rhythmic level, and the phrasing is sometimes worked out in advance. What you have is falsetas and fragments of falsetas that are usually well rehearsed, and can be short ( a few beats long) or long (several compases or rhythmic cycles long), and these can be used or tossed out at will. There is no real "chart" so in that sense there is more freedom. But the idea of creating a melody on the spot is not done often. The reason is because while a lot of falsetas are in fact created that way, just improvising on the rhythm, the end result has to be very "flamenco" whatever that means, and the player needs to structure the melodies and strumming in a way the fits nice and has the right feel.

So it is common to prepare falsetas very well before performing them, and the resulting improvisation is like pulling magic tricks from a bag. (For the record, I analized a few choruses of Giant Steps by Coltrane, and found he repeated entire phrases as long as 4 bars with little variation. This is similar to having arranged "falsetas" and tossing them out at will. Also McLaughlin shows his "melodic minor" devices that he tosses out over ii-V-I chords in his DVD. Same idea). Paco de Lucia for example pulls falsetas from various albums and mixes them up live in his "bulerias". Never twice the same performance nowadays. On the other hand there are structured pieces where the falsetas can be arranged in a specific order such as when Paco plays "Alegrias" live. Nowadays his alegrias consists of falsetas half from "Luzia" and the other half from "la Barrosa". Then the improvisation is subtle and happens in the flouishes and endings, or by putting a twist on the rhythm of the melody or something.

This type of improvisation is happening in the dance and cante as well. Short bits prepared and thrown into the mix at will. It is really fun when everyone is at the same level, guitar singer dancer. Like Jazz bands that know the "standards", there need not be rehearsal for experienced flamencos. If the dancer wants to dance "Alegrias" the guitar and singer should know the form and be prepared to improvise and follow the dancer appropriately.

Now there is a modern dimension to flamenco improv which borrows directly from jazz. That is to actually have a chart and solo over it, still keeping the rhythmic structure. These pieces are considered "fusions" and cutting edge ideas. Paco started this with Rumba "Entre dos Aguas", but carried into Solea por Bulerias, Alegrias, etc. Simple changes usually. The guitar trio with McLaughlin and Dimeola of course attempts to use more interesting changes like jazz, but instead of the "swing rhythm" they do more 16th note, latin or flamenco phrasing with "remates" (rhythmic stops with rasgueados and such). A real fusion. Others copy Paco's ideas or continue that line of fusion. Nunez solos over changes por bulerias for example, and has the jazz guys "swing" over a solea por bulerias. It is not really supposed to swing but the math of rhythm allows it. Lisen to "Jazzpana II".

Vicente Amigo has Bolero, many others us jazz instruments, Tomatito jams with Michele Camilo nowadays, Canizares uses that Brazillian style at times. Strunz and Farah are like Dimeola/Mclughlin but use more latin and south american beats and feel. But keep in mind in this environment there is always a chart so the true flamenco improv can't happen. That is why it is a fusion.

Hope this makes some sense to you at the stage you are at.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2006 23:58:43