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I'd like to hear from you, what you think the 5-10 most important currently-available flamenco guitar CDs are. I live in the USA, so of course I'd be most interested in those readily available in my market.
Too bad I no longer have my vinyl collection as I had some good stuff!
At the moment, I'm MORE interested in the more traditional forms of flamenco guitar, as opposed to nuevo flamenco.
Please list enough information about the albums so I will be able to track them down.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
We've had this discussion a few times before on the forum. When the search facility is up and running again, you could do a search and find out exactly what you want to know.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
Thanks. I tried the search feature to no avail and see that it has been down for months. I am getting together a list for some students, which is why I posted this.
Posts: 15268
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
Traditional: Ramon Montoya-complete recordings double CD Sabicas- Flamenco Puro Nino Ricardo- anything available Paco de Lucia- "Fantasia Flamenca" Manolo Sanlucar-"Mundo y Formas"
Too bad you don't want a more modern list. Here are my 5 favorite flamenco CD's, even though I also enjoy and respect traditional flamenco:
Paco de Lucia- Siroco Manolo Sanlucar- Tauromagia Gerardo Nunez-Jucal Vicente Amigo-Vivencias Imaginadas Tomatito-Paseo de los Castanos
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Escribano)
mmm its a tricky one, there are so many great albums out there...
Traditional.. Carmen Amaya y Sabicas- Queen of the Gypsies (this is a must) Paco de Lucia- Fantasia Flamenca Paco de Lucia- Fuente y Caudal Paco Pena- Azahara Cameron- pick one they are all great...
Modern.. Paco de Lucia- Siroco Ramon Jimenez- Sembrando Inquietudes Gerardo Nunez- Jucal Jose Manual Leon- Sirimusa Vicente Amigo- Vivencias Imaginadas
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
Well, seeing as the search function is out of use ATM, I might as well throw in my 2 cents:
-Paco De Lucia: "Fantasia Flamenca" -Carmen Amaya: "Queen Of The Gypsies" ("La Reina Embrujo Gitano") -Manolo Sanlucar: "Recital De Flamenco" (because I haven't got "Mundo Y Formas" yet) -Sabicas: "Flamenco Puro" or "La Guitarra Flamenca" (compilation) -El Nino Miguel: "Diferente" (has a few modern songs, but mostly traditional)
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
I appreciate the response here. It's not easy picking out good flamenco disks. The stores around here (USA) stock very little and nothing very good really) and going to a site like the Flamenco Collection and looking through their lists....so chancey choosing disks...based on...nice cover art?
When I distinquished between old and new, I didn't mean when the recordings were made, but rather a more traditional flamenco sound and the neuvo flamenco. I like both but am trying to compile a list of more traditional stuff for a few students new to flamenco.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
Fulcanelli,
When we talk about "nuevo Flamenco" on this forum, we are usually referring to Rumba-based music that is very commercial, and often not much to do with traditional Flamenco. But I think its important to know what that is. In my opinion, there are four types of Flamenco:
1.Flamenco Puro with cante (eg. Carmen Amaya) 2.Solo guitar Flamenco puro (eg. Sabicas) 3.solo guitar modern Flamenco (eg. Gerardo Nunez) 4.Nuevo Flamenco (eg. Ottmar Liebert)
The lines between them are often blurred, and I've heard Gerardo Nunez described as "Nuevo Flamenco" once or twice.
But I think what you are looking for is CDs in the first three catagories, and I'd say that any of the albums mentioned above would be suitable.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
Ah...thanks for the clarification. And yes, you were right about how I was using the term, 'neuvo flamenco.'
What do you call the sort of flamenco that stays largely within the traditional format but borrows chords and melodies from the jazz idiom? Paco de Lucia, where does he fit in, regarding categories?
I've had a disk for years called "The Young Flamencos," published by Hannibal Records/Rykodisk. When I listen to this, I hear a lot of modern influences (especially the electric bass) but the guitar playing still 'feels' flamenco. Ottmar, well, that's a different story for me. I don't mean to offend anybody who likes his music but it's a far cry from flamenco. I have been listening to this type of music before Ottmar became the darling of all the New Age restaurants in my area.
I think I know what you mean about the reclassification. I have another disk, "Neuvo Flamenco" published by Music Club, with performances by Ketama, Songhai, Rafael Riqueni, Aurora, Tomatito, and "many more" (as the cover states.) This sounds more like pop music to me and I can't listen to it for very long.
I have another disk, Barrio Negro" by Tomatito, and I have no problems listening that it. IT still has a flamenco feel to me.
Now that I'm aware that I speak a different language here, I'll pay more attention and try to get with the program.
BTW, I have a few Nunez CDs and love his playing. "Jucal" is one I've given as a gift to a few different people.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
quote:
I have another disk, "Neuvo Flamenco" published by Music Club, with performances by Ketama, Songhai, Rafael Riqueni, Aurora, Tomatito, and "many more" (as the cover states.) This sounds more like pop music to me and I can't listen to it for very long.
I have this CD too! I actually quite liked Aurora's song on that album, and also Ray Heredia's. But whether you like them or not, I'd agree that they are more like "Spanish pop/rock" than Flamenco. That said, there is some Tomatito on that album, and he is usually considered "modern Flamenco". So its really a mix, intended for "outsiders".
Paco De Lucia, well... his stuff with Al Di Meola and John McLaughlin isn't really Flamenco. Some people call it "Neuvo Flamenco", but even Nuevo Flamenco doesn't usually use steel-string Ovation guitars, so perhaps it fits better into the "Jazz" catagory.
I'm told that (apart from the cante) Flamenco is based on compas, so if your work uses the traditional Flamenco palos (rhythm structures), its likely to be considered "Flamenco". Rumbas (4/4 timing) are included in that, but they are the simplest form, and I feel that many aficionados consider them inferior to the other palos.
Most of the rest of Paco's solo work fits into either the "traditional solo Flamenco guitar" catagory, or the "Modern solo Flamenco guitar" catagory. But I don't think even his most modern stuff is as modern as some of the other Flamenco guitarists out there.
Paco also has a few "Flamenco puro with cante" albums.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
okay, so I call what I thought was 'neuvo flamenco' by the term, 'modern flamenco,' and most people here will know what I mean, unless of course I run into myself on the forums. It's not easy having multiple personalities, but it does enhance my enjoyment of music since I can have so many reactions to the same piece.
I am guilty...of not really giving "Nuevo Flamenco" a fair chance. The first few songs 'grab' me in the wrong way. I'll explore other tracks. When I bought this album, I thought I was buying more of "The Young Flamencos," an album I enjoy.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
I'm not sure, fulcanelli. If you look at the track listings for "The Young Flamencos" you've got songs by Ray Heredia, Aurora and Ketama again. If you didn't like their songs on the "Nuevo Flamenco" CD you will probably not like these either.
If you want to hear some good "modern Flamenco", try a Vicente Amigo album, a Tomatito album, or a Gerardo Nunez album. I hear Jose Leon Manuel's new album is good too.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
Hmmm...I wonder if we are listening to the same disks? Both have some of the same performers, but the settings sound very different to me. There is a good 5-6 years between both releases. "The Young Flamencos" has a ton of rasgueados accompaniment and most of the singing sounds much like traditional flamenco song. The rhythm is hand clapping mostly. On "Nuevo Flamenco," there are strings, drums, tons of maj7 chords, 'smooth jazz' style singing, especially on the first few tracks. I find them to sound and feel VERY different.
However, I will sit down with them this weekend and go through both more carefully and make better notes.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
quote:
Hmmm...I wonder if we are listening to the same disks? Both have some of the same performers, but the settings sound very different to me. There is a good 5-6 years between both releases. "The Young Flamencos" has a ton of rasgueados accompaniment and most of the singing sounds much like traditional flamenco song. The rhythm is hand clapping mostly. On "Nuevo Flamenco," there are strings, drums, tons of maj7 chords, 'smooth jazz' style singing, especially on the first few tracks. I find them to sound and feel VERY different.
Well, I don't have the "Young Flamencos" album, so I can't comment on it. But Ray Heredia and Aurora only released one album each. I know because I own both of those albums. I would say that both albums are 90% "easy-listening", albeit with a Latin feel. And Ketama are known for a similar brand of music.
It may just be that the "Young Flamencos" CD has picked the least commercial of their songs. But if its "modern Flamenco" WITHOUT CANTE you're after, I'd still recommend Vicente Amigo and Tomatito. Or try Estrella Morente or Pitingo if you want some modern cante.
Posts: 15268
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
Fulcanelli, "young flamencos" was a compilation of artists who were young and hopefull in the 80's. 20 years later, they are not so young and the music has changed a lot. Careful with compilations, they are not always the best representation of an artist. They are a way for the record company to get names out and make some extra off certain tracks. The tracks are not always chosen by aficionados.
Paco de lucia has released a lot of CD's. Each solo guitar CD was pretty much a trend setter when it was released. The evolution of flamenco guitar can be traced through his successive recordings. The older the CD, the more traditional. The mid point of trad/modern flamenco guitar is Fuene y Caudal/Almoraima, although debateable. The trend started at that time to include other instruments, and continues today. The 2 CDs recomended above "Fantasia Flamenca", and "Siroco" are good to compare traditional vs modern style flamenco guitar. But he also has recorded classical music, world music, jazz fusion, and even Brazillian latin american, etc totally non flamenco music.
Tomatito and Gerardo Nunez are both heavily influenced by Paco's work, and considered modern flamenco. Paco Pena is a contemporary guitarist of Paco de lucia, who's playing is still considered traditional.
Rather than give you a history of flamenco, it would be easier to give you specific info on CD's you may select to buy. So make a list of some things you are curious about and we can help you.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks. I know what a compilation is. I listened (in a skimming sort of way) to both of the CDs we've been discussing and I still say "Young Flamencos" has more of a flamenco feel. There is a lot more flamenco-style guitar on it. There are a few tracks on "Nuevo Flamenco" that sound like South American Salsa tunes.
I didn't post this to find out about the newer stuff, really. I'm more interested in the sort of flamenco guitar one would have thought of before it evolved. (I do like some of the newer stuff.) I do have a few Paco de Lucia CDs, btw. Nunez is considered modern, huh? Hmmm...I love "Jucal" and modern or not, it has that traditional flamenco sound I thrive on.
Ricardo, I can't make a list of performers I don't know. Actually, until we diverted with all the discussion on 'modern' and 'nuevo' flamenco, I was getting a lot of useful suggestions. I'm glad we did discuss those newer forms because I misunderstood the world of today's flamenco.
I appreciate any other recommendations. I think 'flamenco puro' would be in order as a theme for my request.
Thanks. This has been an interesting conversation.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
quote:
There are a few tracks on "Nuevo Flamenco" that sound like South American Salsa tunes.
lol, from what I've heard, there are few tracks like that on BOTH albums!
Yes, much of Nunez' stuff is considered modern... especially when it uses instruments like saxophones.
If you're after "pre-evolution" flamenco (without cante), try Nino Ricardo and Ramon Montoya. But, relatively speaking, even they have evolved to some degree.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
Kev:
I was going through your list and am having trouble finding a few of the performers.
Cameron - can't find a [flamenco] thing. The name is listed on www.allmusic.com but no albums or information.
Ramon Jimenez. There is a rock band listed, and a classical player, Juan Ramon Jimenez. No flamenco.
Jose Manual Leon - nothing.
Any further info?
You listed two of these as 'modern.' I am having great difficulty describing what I am looking for here. Let's forget the modern stuff for now. (I am still interested in learning more of the two you listed.)
How about this...'traditional' flamenco, flamenco puro. WHEN it was recorded (40 years ago, last year) doesn't matter as long as it is flamenco puro. Don't forget I'm in the USA and I'm looking for albums in print. This list is for some students, so ready-access to these is important.
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
Hey,
You can also listen to flamencoradio a lot to develop ur own taste of what is top and what is not. The guy who is running this radio is also from USA as far as I know. Maybe you can also communicate with him! http://www.flamencoradio.net
RE: Top Five Traditional Flamenco CD... (in reply to Fulcanelli)
Hi Dave,
welcome...I am a faithful lover of this site, because here I cant find any stores to buy flamenco CDs and also I am not rich to buy at all, anyway...So this site is a great service for people like me who cant buy CDs for any reason, I also record often from the stream (using mp3 stream recorders) and this way i have lots of flamenco pieces stored on my hard disk :)
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It's not easy having multiple personalities, but it does enhance my enjoyment of music since I can have so many reactions to the same piece. 
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