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Flamenco 13...She's done!   You are logged in as Guest
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Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 13...She's done! 

Okay….. She’s done! (sorry, this is kind of long..)

Spent most of yesterday tuning the guitar in to finish; re-checked the frets, re-crowned where I had to file again, then I did my final sanding and hit the polisher.

That done (and inspected by Bob), who was quite impressed at the finish quality and look of the KTM-9 water-based lacquer. It really does finish out quite like French, and the top (French’d) came out beautiful.

I then set the pegs (peheads.com), which were a bit of a pain in the ass, and I ended marking the back side of the head in spots. Damn…Well, can’t see it, anyway, but still….. Maybe one day I’ll fix it. Not bad – just not perfect..

Then set the flamenco tap plate. THIS is a royal pain in the ass, and you better get it right the first time, ‘cause it ain’t comin’ off! Got it on right, but the cutting around the sound hole is less than perfect, but I cleaned it up a bit and it’s more than acceptable, now. I also did set a thin strip behind the bridge to protect from string-pop. Mixed feelings about that, but if a string goes, it’s less noticeable than a big hole in the top! I also believe in the theory of NOT butting the tap plat to the bridge, so I used a thin purfling strip to offset from the bridge by about 1mm.

Made the head and saddle nuts…..and it was time to string. I used a thin straight edge that fit into the string slot to check my heights, and then I strung carefully. After a few strings were brought to tension, I checked my heights. Removed the saddle, and lowered a bit. Brought it up to tension again, and all looked good, so I finished the stringing.

Head nut height is perfect, and I’m just under 3mm off the 12th on the low E, with the 'perfect buzz' when hit hard. Off the soundboard, I’m right about 9mm, which is higher than many shoot for, but the plans were 10mm, and I’m very comfortable with those dimensions, as I have long fingers.

The headnut is 54mm wide, with the high E offset from the edge of the fretboard 5mm. Takes a bit of getting used to, but I like it because the E doesn’t slip off the edge when you pull a note on the far string.

Sooooooooooooooooo??!! So how does she sound?

Well, the first notes seemed slightly odd (maybe I was just terrified and excited?), but within minutes she began to settle in and open up quickly. She has TREMENDOUS power – which will make a great, unaided accompaniment guitar, and she’s now showing she has that dry, punchy, ‘Spanish sound’, which is what I so hoped for....and yet she is very 'even' across the strings. Even the G has great punch, without compensation.

So I got home, and I brought it over to my neighbor, Randy Pile, a concert classical guitarist, who owns one of ‘Little Pepe’s’ (Romeros) guitars, and 5 Miguel Rodriguez (plus about 5 other guitars). His friend, Gurd Wuestemann, another touring concert virtuoso, is visiting…

They are both rather stunned! Both at the workmanship and finish, and the playability and sound of the guitar. Gurd is also a builder and cannot believe what I’ve done on a first effort (I’m all smiles!!!) They both play a bit of flamenco, but love the tones and power, and all the way up the neck, nothing is dead. Gurd played a piece right up to the 19th and said; “Amazing – and it’s only a few hours old!”

Gurd told me that he has seen many $4000 instruments by builders that don’t compare (the workmanship), and he does not praise lightly, as he is sponsored in part by Robert Ruck, and knows what a good guitar takes.

Me? Wow….It’s almost surrealistic to me. “I built THIS guitar”???? You know? It doesn’t quite seem real! Lol…. Weird. I’m kind of blown away that it’s receiving the kind of praise it is, already, but I look at the whole package and it’s hard to see the process as having come from my hands. I told luthier Bob Hein this when we finished, and he said; “You had the guidance, but it was your skills and patience (something I'm short on...) that made this as good as it is”…

Not trying to boast here, as I’m in a bit of a daze, but just trying to give you guys (and girls) a better idea of what the whole thing is/was like. Like ordering a guitar online or something; no way to know exactly what you will get. You can even hear these soundclips they add, but still….Hard to translate into words.

UPDATE: I wrote this this morning, then went to a flamenco dance class to accompany. 2 other guitarists there, Agustin ‘El Moro’, who is left-handed, is the main guitarist, and was floored at the power and tones in the guitar. Just had his mouth open the whole time!… lol….I don’t know what to say, other than it was a LOT of hard work, incredible thanks to Robert Hein for the opportunity, patience, guidance, and the use of his shop. I just went out and bought 2 Gift Certificates at his favorite restaurant and another bar and grill, trying to say thanks in some small way.

Luthiers??? I have SOOOO much respect now for what you guys accomplish on a consistent basis! Painstaking work!

Hope I was entertaining, and passed along some possible info to others. Again, thanks to all with the feedback, to Tom at La Falseta, for his help and taking the time to share, and to Tom Blackshear, for drawing these plans.

I will one day soon – when I have access – possible record something for the board..

Muchas Gracias!

Rand Hogen (my name!)
Ramón



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 22:50:54
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Head...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 22:51:55
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Binding & purfling...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 22:53:31
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Bridge...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 22:54:23
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Rosette and ticket...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 22:55:22
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Neck...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 22:56:21
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Back...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 22:57:24
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Flamenco 13. She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Side view...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 22:58:30
 
DoctorX2k2

 

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Amazing!

Wow... what can I say? I wished I had the ressources and will to make one myself... I was very impressed from your first post to the last. Ahhhh makes me wish I had woodworking skills and access to an experienced luthier. I'm jealous, to be honest . Great work!

Do you plans to build another one in the future?

Anyways, enjoy your creation, it's a beauty!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 23:22:33
 
JasonM

Posts: 2084
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Beautiful craftmans ship! Reading your post, I could just feel your tension as you put the tap plate on. Man I would be sweating bullets. And the best part is, you are satisfied with your guitar. Congrads. And by the way, thanks for documenting the process. I might be looking this up some day.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 23:48:08
 
ricecrackerphoto

Posts: 265
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
 

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

rand, congratulations! what a monster accomplishment. cannot wait to hear what she sounds like. thanks for sharing during the process. its been fascinating to read the updates.

you going to start taking orders?????

doug
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2006 23:59:20
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

Damn! that is absolutely beautiful. I'm proud of you man. Playing a new guitar is great. Playing a guitar that YOU built.......1000x's better.

If you decide to continue, it gets even better. #2 should come out better than #1. #3, better than #2 and so on. The best part is the WHOLE process gets a lot easier as you gain experience. You won't make whatever mistakes you made the first time around.

I forgot to ask you, did you ever get to use the fish glue on any part of this? if so, what did you think? Isn't it amazing how the finish just magnifies every little grain and pops some out you didn't even know were there? That's why it's really important to make sure you don't have any defects or tool marks left on before you hit it with the finish.

Kudos to you Rand. Outstanding job and I'm sure it's BETTER than what you say it is.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 0:26:34
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón



Hi guys!

Taking a practice break to read the comments! THANKS! I also posted in Audio/Vid uploads, as I'm looking for the guitarist on this guajira (and maybe tabs to help speed things up a bit!!), as I try to figure it out... I'm sitting in on an alegrias class, followed by a guajira class...Gorgeous girls, and I really enjoy playing for them - even if I am invisible!

Yes, I used fish glue for most everything. Will do the whole thing in it - if there is a 'next time'! But the offer has to come from Bob.

Taking orders! hahahahaha....Yea. $1M US, but I might consider less, for cash!

Tap plate? SOOOO cheap to buy/replace, and one of the scariest moments , I think!

Tom is right, it's gets easier and (I hope), better, but I may have performed The Ultimate Beginners Luck, and 2, 3 and 4 could be disasters! lol...Who knows!?



Back to playing! (PS...Tom....Your avatar??? I hear you also play 'flamingo' guitar, too, as I'm often asked!!!)

Saludos,

R
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 0:44:39
 
ykabban

 

Posts: 251
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
 

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Looks delicious man, great job! I bet you're floating....very awesome.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 1:01:01
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

quote:

Back to playing! (PS...Tom....Your avatar??? I hear you also play 'flamingo' guitar, too, as I'm often asked!!!)


I am a flamingo guitarist but I do enjoy some flamenco too which is why I frequent this place. If you want any flamingo tips, just ask as I am the best. I'll teach you my secret to playing while standing on one leg while the other is bent at the knee. I don't teach this to ANYONE. Only you because I like you. Once you learn this, you can pass it down to your children and them to theirs.

Ramon Montoya is at the top of the great flamenco guitar players tree with Niño Ricardo, Sabicas and Paco de Lucia following. I am at the top of great flamingo players and I'm looking for my first to teach to branch off from me. You could be my Niño Ricardo.

PS, that is one RED chair!

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 1:32:47
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Diggin' that chair, huh? lol... My chair gets lots of attention when I gig with it. Some guy made them for his company's trade show - 'No Hair'...He was throwing them out, so I snagged 'em! Got two of them. Sit on the front porch at night, hear the ocean, and play....

Hey...Where do I sign up for flamingo instruction???



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 2:35:01
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

the logo...HIS logo!!! Got all mine!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 2:36:01
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

quote:

Diggin' that chair, huh? lol... My chair gets lots of attention when I gig with it. Some guy made them for his company's trade show - 'No Hair'...He was throwing them out, so I snagged 'em! Got two of them. Sit on the front porch at night, hear the ocean, and play....

Hey...Where do I sign up for flamingo instruction???


Is the chair red or "Conde" orange? your next guitar will have to match that in color. Will look good together.

You can sign up for flamingo lessons at flamingo-teacher.com

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 2:49:17
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Actually, it IS Conde' orange! lol....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 2:52:16
 
chinito

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Jun. 14 2004
 

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Congrats Ramon!

She looks beautiful and I bet she sounds just as good. The body shape and overall proportions are gorgeous and the detailing and finish are certainly impressive.
Gonna post some audio clips of her soon?

-Jake.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 3:44:17
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Wow....good job Ramon. She's stunning. congrats.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 5:50:35
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

I've witenessed it before.
But I still think it's amazing that someone makes a guitar for the first time and can make it look so perfect !
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 7:44:19
 
lukemoon

 

Posts: 60
Joined: Aug. 6 2006
 

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

looks great! are you going to sell it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 10:22:23
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Lukemoon,

No, no selling - yet! If I get the op' to build again, who knows? I didn't know if I WOULD want to build after I was done, but ya' know what? It kinda' gets in your blood! lol....

So who knows...A few more people have seen and played it, and they are kind of speechless, so I surprised even myself, as all I hoped to acheive was just a "decent sounding' guitar"..

I really wanted to finish this guitar to have and play, but even with work, I managed to get over quite a bit. If I did it again, it would take a bit longer as I would work on 'when I could', and again, patience would be the key to making an even better instrument.

That in itself is somewhat motivating, as I would like to see if I could out-do this one......probably build the rosette, too!

Cheers,

R



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 23:21:16
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Ramon,

So, how do you like the "Peghed's"? Any installation issues? Nice and smooth..etc.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2006 23:33:26
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Pegheds? Hmmmmmmmmm.... Here's the low-down...

Threads are a joke. Bob (the luthier) tried 3 sets, then ordered 6 sets more. He talked with Chuck about;

1. Rather useless threads. Won't 'cut', and if there is any shellac or lacquer in the holes, forget it; They won't push through. A more aggressive thread would have made a huge difference.

2. The fact that out of 6 sets, Bob has only 2 COMPLETE, good sets that work as they're supposed to.

3. The new ones have the molded 'buttons' - a bit ratty looking. I sent my ebony pegs in when they first used the button from the wood ones. This is way nicer than the new ones. If you DO order, I would ask if you can still do this.

4. The fact that Chuck said they'd made "50,000 of them already", and didn't seem interested to make any improvments - or just make them work right.

They ARE very nice, look quite close to the real deal, and there is a guy who re-sells them on the web and adds pearl or bone dots to them. A nice touch....

http://www.lessonsinlutherie.com/PlanetaryPegs.html

However, I have 2 that slip unless REALLY shoved up hard, 2 that click-click-click as they tune, and 2 that tune as smooth as butter.

Wish the quality control was there....

Finally, they are NOT as easy as they suggest to put in! They were made VERY off-sized to all standard drills and such, and you have to buy a special tapering tool ($120) and cut or file the head down. Drill sizes are such that one is too small and the next too big, so you have to buy a special bit, too.

Maybe Anders figured out a backdoor technique that made it easier, or, just got it close and glued them in as we did. The threads will NOT do it (IMHO). He might shed some light here...

Make sure you test the direction of each thread-pattern, and install so that, as you tighten the string, you are also tightening the post, but the glue should hold it.

Final thoughts: A pain in the ass in many ways, but in the end, it really does work far easier than pegs, and I've had about 6 peghead guitars, so I've seen very good to very bad. I like these things....Just wish they were a LITTLE better. It would make them VERY worthwhile. And I just LOVE peghead flamencos, as it leaves so much more heaplate wood.

Maybe the re-seller guy is doing some touchup/quality control. Just a thought here I just had:

If the shaft wall is thick enough, one could re-cut the threads a little deeper with a tap and die set (wanna bet that it's odd-sized, too! lol). It would take off the color, but it's inside the wood, anyway!

Rand
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2006 1:20:15

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Awesome Ramon, simply awesome. Its 100 times better than the guitar I'm currently making, and it even looks better than some I have bought.

Please do post an audio clip at some point, I'd love to hear the sound for myself!

By the way, how did you print the label inside the guitar? Is it just something printed out on Photoshop, or did you get it specially made? Regular paper or plastic coated? I printed out a fancy one on photoshop, but a drop of water got on it and the print ran slightly .


Cheers!

Jb
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2006 8:31:05
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Bob does his on an inkjet printer, and they will run, so he covers as he continues working. I ran mine off to a disc, then to a printer who has an awesome laser color printer - like .65 cents per page. The quality is noticeably better, but I did not test for 'runs'. I have had color biz cards made by him this way, and they hold up very well.

I made like 25 tickets...Should I make the guitars to put them into??

I would do the same if I were you. They're just printed on a nice parchment-looking paper. Try a light coat of 'art sealer' or even spray lacquer over to seal it....

I messed up, too, and didn't have a ticket ready until I strung it up, so it went in about 4 minutes before launch, so it was one less worry while building, but harder to place in position.

When I get my hands on a good recorder, I will play a little Led Zep' or Hendrix on it and post.... (that would actually be kind of funny to do!)

Thanks for the compliment!

RH
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2006 14:55:11
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

RH,

Thanks for the info on Pegheads. I just last week talked to Chuck. To listen to him, they are the easiest things in the world to install and work flawlessly.

I also talked to Brian Burns (the site you have listed) last week as well. Brian buys them in large quantities and reworks the pegs. He said the same thing you experienced with the rough finish. He said he uses a five-step process to clean and buff them. The good thing is he sells them for about the same price as Chuck sells them for with the extra care.

He is sending me a set that I should have this week. Can you tell if the mechanism is going to be rough before installing them or to you have to have tension on them?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2006 17:55:06
 
Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Flamenco 13...She's done! (in reply to Ramón

Hola Patrick,

I think that since there are 50,000 in Chucks inventory, they are, of course, great. No disrespect, as I love them and the idea, it's just not as simple as Chuck states.

When Bob said the general reamers were odd-sized to the pegheds, Chuck said; "Just pick up this reamer I use"...

Well, $120.00 for the reamer, special drill, a few hours to refit - oh!!!! You WILL need to take a pair of pliers to get past certain areas when threading - at times - and to remove after the 'test fit', put glue on, and get them set PERFECT....

Add $120.00 for the pegs, and this becomes a bit more than "the easiest thing in the world"...and a bit more costly.

Bob made an HDPE (plastic) jaw for the pliers, and then uses a thin, flexible-but-tough rubber strip to grab the pegs. Even with this, this is what dented the back of the head - as careful as I was - and also, still, got a few teeth marks in one of the more troublesome pegs... Bummer...

Again, I'm not the authority on this. This was just MY experience, and yet, Bob's done 3 or 4 and says this is "routine".

Maybe Anders has a few tips or cost/time saving ideas. You COULD do it a bit sloppy, and with glue, be okay, but I was trying to get the rim flush with the headplate, and no threads showing in back. I laminated the head TO the peghed-dimensions - I think it's 19mm???? Not sure, now, and this flushes the top and hides the threads...

And yes, the buttons are ROUGH. Bob liked that the first ones WERE ebony, taken from a real pegs.

I might just contact the other guy, ask if he can use my peg's buttons, and get another set with the bone dots. Thinking about it, although mine seem to be settling in a bit.......



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