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Hmmm... there is a fellow, Humberto Bruni, who studied this intensely. He even created some graphs illustrating some of his conclusions. He used ia for scales, and if I recall, measured the speed of i independently. Theoretically, the maximum possible speed would be double the speed of i. I find that I can play i (one finger alternating) faster than sixteenth notes at 120 bpm for 1 beat bursts, and m just as fast. So, let's say that it's 120, my maximum possible speed for im would be 240! That would be fast enough I guess. I'm sure most people have never even tried, but I bet a lot of inexperienced players would be better off doing picado with one finger! Much less to go wrong.
I guess this really doesn't have that much to do with your calculations, Sean.
Anyways, Bruni did some studies and created machines and workout regimes to increase the strength of the fingers. He reasoned that on a slack guitar you can easily play almost anything, but once the strings are high tension and esp. on a big Ramirez, things become very difficult. It seems to affect coordination. So, obviously the only difference is strength...the ease of getting through the string.
His graphs showed a steady progress of speed closer and closer to the ideal maxium (which of course can never be reached). So for me the conclusion was clear that if you can find ways to strengthen those fingers in a way that will make it easier for them to get through the strings, your speed will increase.
Unfortunately, his website is down right now.
Continuing on with my intial thought, if I can play bursts of i at 120, but can only play scales at 160, it seems there is a lot of room for improvement. Whether it's a matter of strength, precision/coordination, or improving the alternation mechanism itself, there is some head space there. I think most people doing the measurements would find similiar conclusions. Except for Grisha. I bet he is not that far off from his top speed right now.
Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted)
Very interesting. I know there are those that would see this as over thinking but I tend to put think in a little mental filing cabinet and when I hit a technical problem or adopt a new exercise it allows me to see what the exercise is intended to improve and I can really focus on that aspect of it. I think knowing the mechanics of all this can help getting to the bottom of things faster.
Interstingly enough, in a book I have by Richard Provost (?) he talks about IM alternation and how even non-musicians can generally alternate IM just as fast as musicians. His point is that it is the co-ordination of these movements that a musian has (or should have) developed to allow them to play quickly.
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted)
i put hightension on my guitar yesterday and woooo!! my cordination was back. Anders guitars comes with mediums and they flap so much i lose my cordination in picado
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RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted)
High tensions hasnt only disadvantage aspects for speed. You can also put on high tension and still play at the bridge no? Im not going to make a theory, this is too subjective IMO. Everyone should play the tension he likes. I think everybody more or less knows the physics of different tensions, and if not, at least they can "feel" it during playing. I dont see there any problem, Miguel.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted)
Of course he can do whatever he wants. My point is that if you think the normal tensions are too slack, you just need to play closer to the bridge. It's not something that occurs to everyone, you know. Plus it sounds more flamenco that way.
Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted)
I don't think it's that simple Miguel. I don't think you can just decide, whether you're going to play close to the bridge or not. For me, it's imposible to play like Paco (almost on the bridge). Besides, Sabicas played far from the bridge and his sound was obviously still very flamenco.
So I guess Paco is using lighter gauge strings then....or playing with tips of his nails, like Grisha said.....If he wanted to say that.... I don't understand really....
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted)
Why did you remove it Grisha ? I found it very interesting. Especially the part which says that you only touch the "reststring" with the uppertip of your finger.
Do you mean the "not digging into the strings"gives you that flying feeling ?
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted)
Miguel, that was exactly what im talking about. Yes it is possible that someone feels normal strings to slappy even if he plays on the bridge. Thats what the comment "one can also use hard tension strings and play on the bridge" should stand for. Its too subjective. And not only that, it also depends on the guitar (setup).
In all the various discussions on picado speed I've never heard anyone mention the fretting hand as a possible stumbling block. For those of you who can play very fast picados - is there a point at which your fretting hand can't keep up with the speed of your picado?
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to cneberg)
quote:
So I guess Paco is using lighter gauge strings then....
When I first listened to Sabicas, I couldn't understand why everybody said he was a 'must listen.' I really didn't like his sound, mostly because I was comparing to PDL and other modern players.
After listening to other, older, guitarists I think that I didn't like the sound of the lower tensioned strings and I preferred that crispness in PDL's sound. I now seem to connect that sound with higher tensioned strings. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.
Here's question about strings and speed: Higher tensioned strings should snap back to their original position faster because of the higher tension. So wouldn't higher tensioned strings allow for faster picado? Again following this premise, shouldn't playing near the bridge also allow for even faster picados (especially as the saddle prevents the string from moving as far away from starting position)?
In all the various discussions on picado speed I've never heard anyone mention the fretting hand as a possible stumbling block. For those of you who can play very fast picados - is there a point at which your fretting hand can't keep up with the speed of your picado?
Phil
Phil, I think there might be. One of my friends who reached very high velocity said that at some point the left hand is the determiner. But the average person doesn't reach that point. Even in bursts of 16ths at 180, I still found the RH being the problem.
Hopefully Grisha will chime in and let us know what he thinks!
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to Grisha)
Fantastic Grisha! Absolutely Flamenco... There are no short cuts in this business.. strings...guitars..vaseline...etc
Thank you for proving the point!
In fact, this must be the world's first ever publicised experiment from a top notch guitarist, to prove if all these incidental factors matter or not... In the same catagory IMO as when they invented photography, and filmed a horse running over thread triggers to settle the arguement, if all four of the horse's hooves left the ground in full gallop or not....
Thanks for doing that Grisha, there is so much BS surrounds the guitar..
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted)
Grisha, that sounded real cool, kind of "old school".
Ron, my current thinking is that if you really want it, you'll do whatever it takes to accomplish it, and pay no mind to the people around you. That may take obsessive focus and practice, or maybe it comes easy to some people. But anything less is...well, not worth talking about I guess.
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted)
I wasn't suggesting that string could make you faster. That's like when you're a child and you think you're cool new runners are going to make you swifter.
My implication was that if you have a tremendously fast picado (we're talking PDL speed here), then higher tensioned springs would respond faster for you.
Like typing on an old 386 PC where a touch typist would type faster than the text could appear on screen, or perhaps more like the real reason behind the qwerty layout to slow typists down to so that the mechanism wouldn't get jammed up.
RE: sticking points for speed (in reply to el ted)
I think the tension have to do with the speed. If you are a good player and already have a fast picado or a great technic, you also can play it on worser equipment. But if you wanna learn a new technic, it could be that you can learn it faster on maybe higher tension strings. For me the key to speed are the fingernails. If the protection is too big, I allways loose my picado speed. Without protection I´m much faster. I think many technics are easyer to controll on higher tension strins, coz they dont move so big.
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