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Value of Self Made Guitars
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Gecko
Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico
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 RE: Value of Self Made Guitars (in reply to Exitao)
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First, I have very little luthiery experience. However, I am in the process of restoring an old nega. So far this has included: Correcting a neck angle problem, constructing a bridge (actually modifying a classical), reaming for new tuners, fingerboard removal and replacement with graphite rod installation in the neck, refretting and finish stripping and dent steaming.
I have received a tremendous amount of help from several members here with detailed instructions, yet it is not coming out exactly as I wanted. Will it be acceptable? Yes!, but still not exactly as I had hoped it would be. One of the lessons I will take away from this experience is that there is just as much art, and perhaps more, than science when doing luthiery work and experience is probably just as important as learning and understanding the processes. Another lesson I have learned is that a flamenco guitar is a much different "beast" from a regular steel string acoustic or even a classical. Unless your instructor is familiar with flamencos and has actually built a few of them, which this instructor may have, then obviously he/she will be unable to guide you proberly. Still, in my very humble opinion, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to build your "dream guitar" on your first or even second try.
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Date Jun. 6 2006 10:25:41
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: Value of Self Made Guitars (in reply to Exitao)
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If money is the major isssue, then in theory its cheaper to make your dream guitar than buy a Conde for several thousand dollars. But you've also gotta consider the cost of the teaching. Some of my colleagues (at my college luthiery course) did those "build your dream guitar" courses, and they tell me it cost them over £1000 (perhaps more) just in teaching fees. Now you can buy a pretty damn good guitar for £1000! Plus there's usually quite a few students for every luthiery teacher, meaning that less time can be given on a one-to-one basis. And the other thing to consider is that nobody's first guitar will be perfect (perhaps in sound, playability or appearance). I am finding that out myself, as I go along the making process. If you are an expert in woodwork, your guitar may be be much better. But even still, there are some things only time and experience in luthiery can give you. If you can afford it, go ahead and do the luthiery course and make your own guitar, but don't expect the first one to be absolutely perfect, and perhaps not as good as the guitar you could buy with the equivalent of the teaching fees.
But at the end of the day, if you learn the techniques once, you can make more guitars later in your own time, and each one will probably improve in quality. Just make sure the teacher is good, that there aren't too many students in each class, and that you do your homework. 
Jb
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Date Jun. 6 2006 16:34:13
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Value of Self Made Guitars (in reply to Exitao)
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When I made my guitar, I realized that the most important thing of all, I lacked. That is, patience! And now, as I progress in guitar, I realize that patience is of the essence there, too. Attention to detail, discipline, abstaining from emotional roller coasters due to progress or lack of, and patience.
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Date Jun. 6 2006 21:29:18
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: Value of Self Made Guitars (in reply to Exitao)
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Thanx for the replies, based on these I have a few more questions:
As I pointed out before, there is no local selection and I would have to order a guitar in. This bugs me a little because I wouldn't get to choose the one that sounded right to me, so I'd have to go by name. Now if you gentlemen were going to have to purchase this way, wouldn't you kind of 'over-buy'? And how much would you invest, in a guitar that you'll want to use a for 10-20 years and never sell?
For those of you who have done these sorts of things (maybe Ramon will chime in?), if you had to compare your finished product to a storebought guitar, what price range would you compare it to? And how much did the quality of instruction and your own ability factor into your calculation?
How much would a good luthier's guitars go for? Not necessarily a famous luthier, but a good one? If I check out this guy's shop and ask about the prices of any he might have kicking around, what would be a good indicator price? (Assuming he's not over-inflating his prices.)
I have been to his shop a few years ago, I worked nearby, and he had said the ones he had in shop were not for sale as they were mostly showpieces, and he wouldn't part with one unless it was to someone who would really do it justice.
But he will build to order...
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Date Jun. 7 2006 7:26:48
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Gecko
Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico
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RE: Value of Self Made Guitars (in reply to Exitao)
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Personally, I would have no problem in ordering a guitar from either Anders or Aaron. I have never heard of anyone not happy with their instruments. Prices are posted on their web sites.
Anders
Aaron
Also, though he doesn't actually sell the ones he builds himself, yet, (at least as far as I know), Tom at LaFalseta sells and imports some very nice instruments and usually has some excellent used ones as well.
LaFalseta
Over the past year or so I have checked out a number of the "lessor knowns" and their prices, for a Grade 1, are not much, if any less. However, you may stumble upon somebody, somewhere, or an "up and coming" luthier.
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Date Jun. 7 2006 10:17:10
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: Value of Self Made Guitars (in reply to Exitao)
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I can only tell you my point of view.
a couple of years ago when i started to play flamenco guitar, i have purchased a guitar in Sevilla which was a cedar top negra from Valeriano Bernal. The guitar was a 2nd hand but only about one year old and i have paid 1000euros for it. The same model new, was priced 1600euros but the sound of the new guitar could not match the 2nd hand, because it was not broken inn. (Btw..there is definitely smoething to it with the braking in, also on cedar topped guitars).
When i bought that guitar i found it to be the best sounding guitar, because up to then i didn't played a better one. Meanwhile i've heard and played many different flamenco guitars and i know that this guitar is not the ultimate "super jigger" but it is still a good sounding guitar which i still like and i wouln't ever sell it. If i play this guitar and it doesn't sounds well, its not because the guitar is not good enough but it's because i don't play good enough.
Nevertheless i'm also intrigued to buy some high end guitars but i've realized that i couldn't afford to spend that much money just for a guitar. Therefore i took the other way. I started to build flamenco guitars by myself. Now after three years i must say, that all the money i've spent in tools, tonewoods, books, plans and courses have exceeded the price for a highend guitar by far, but.....
I didn't had to pay all at the time and more important, i've learned a wonderful craft, which gives me a lot of satisfaction and a change to my rather boring office job. But now...am i able to build a guitar that sounds equal to a Conde or Reyes or any other famous Luthier? No, i'm still far away of that, even when this is one of my personal goals.
I think you should deside for yourself, what is more important for you:
The playing or the building of guitars.
If it's the playing, i definitely recommend you to forget about the building. You'll better invest your money if you buy one. On top of that you'll gonna save a lot of time.
If it's the building, don't care too much about what would happen if this or that..Just go for it and you'll be happy to play your first self made guitar even if it will not be perfect.
Very few luthiers have managed to be also a good player. Some of them know only a couple of chords. There are exceptions though. R.E Bruné is such an exception but read his biography. It has some things in common with what i have written above.
Armando
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Date Jun. 7 2006 10:34:08
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Value of Self Made Guitars (in reply to Exitao)
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I guess Ron you don't remember that I became a luthier at one time.
Yes, that's right. I quit my day job, with the intent of building guitars by day. You see, my girlfriend was a lawyer and our schedules didn't mesh too well with me waiting tables/playing guitar.
I bought Ron Cumpiano's book, got tons of clamps and tools, an LMI catalog, and set to work.
My first project was to be a mahogany back and sides, red cedar flamenco.
To make a long story short, I had no woodworking experience of any kind. I had never sawed, routed, sanded, glued, chiseled, or cut in my life. I also set the requirement that it was going to be all hand tools. Don't ask me why I get these weird ideas into my head . Those of you who have been "handy" your whole life probably don't realize that mundane tasks like sharpening a plane, sawing a piece of wood to measurements, indeed measuring itself are skills. Skills I did not possess.
Cumpiano marveled at the master luthiers and their "infinite patience." My patience comes in at the other end, between "ADD" and "impulsive." Unfortunately making guitars did not change this to any degree.
My workshop was initially set up in the garage. Working from the book, and without power tools (except a small router that I got), I completed the "box" in about a month. This includes planing and cutting out the sides, back, front; curving the sides with a side bender (the worst part); chiseling a bridge (the most fun and my best part I think); installing tuners; installing fret wire; installing a rosette; making kerfing; making braces; and of course gluing the whole thing together.
I strung it up with some old black La Bellas. I held down an E7b9 chord, and...thwak! The strings, when strummed, merely flapped against some part of the fingerboard that had been incorrectly angled.... Taking out my trusty straightedge, I determined that a bit of planing would probably solve the problem. All I would have to do is take off some fret wire, plane down, then put some lacquer over the whole thing, and..
It was at this point that I lost interest. What can I say, the guitar was a mess. It was not even symmetrical because the side bending process had been a disaster. It was small and also very shallow-bodied, also due to mistakes here. It took me about a month, if I recall. Maybe if I had taken a year as Tom had said, it would have turned out better! But that's just how I was...
So the "guitar" sits in a case in my garage. Maybe, someday, I'll hire someone to tweak it and then spray lacquer it, just for fun.
Total cost: approx $7000 in tools, supplies, and lost wages!
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Jun. 7 2006 15:56:41
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Value of Self Made Guitars (in reply to Exitao)
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Exitao,
my first advice to you is to forget the notion that you will be buying a great guitar and play it for 20 years. It doens't really work that way.
The way it works, is you get the best guitar you can afford, and you deal with its problems and learn how to play on it. Eventually, you get tired of it or you realize you could do better. In the process of playing it, you are hopefully learning what it does well and what it does badly. That is how you learn what kind of guitar to buy.
Armed with this new knowledge, you get another, hopefully better guitar. You put the old one up on ebay, unless you have been afflicted with GAS (Guitar Acquisition Syndrome), which means you will keep it and most of the others you end up getting. You repeat the process, learning how to play and also learning about this guitar.
The idea is that over time, you become knowledgeable about exactly what it is you need in a guitar. Another option is that you accumulate an array of guitars at great financial and relationship-related expense. Another option is that you become a "guitar seller" like Tom, a job in which you are allowed to smell the soundholes of lots of really nice guitars!
I have had good luck over the internet. I bought a Vicente Carillo from Tom Nunez, and a Tezanos Perez from Patrick Harris. Both experiences were excellent. I wouldn't get another VC, though, over time I realize the neck was too wide for me. Besides that it was great. But you find these things out over time. I really think this "buy one great guitar for life" thing is a myth. Sure, it CAN work out that way. But more likely, you are going to change and you may want the guitar to change too.
On another note, I might be willing to sell my Francisco Navarro negra (it has a pickup in it).
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Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Jun. 7 2006 16:08:48
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: Value of Self Made Guitars (in reply to Exitao)
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quote:
I strung it up with some old black La Bellas. I held down an E7b9 chord, and...thwak! The strings, when strummed, merely flapped against some part of the fingerboard that had been incorrectly angled.... Taking out my trusty straightedge, I determined that a bit of planing would probably solve the problem. All I would have to do is take off some fret wire, plane down, then put some lacquer over the whole thing, and..
It was at this point that I lost interest. What can I say, the guitar was a mess. It was not even symmetrical because the side bending process had been a disaster. It was small and also very shallow-bodied, also due to mistakes here. It took me about a month, if I recall. Maybe if I had taken a year as Tom had said, it would have turned out better! But that's just how I was...
So the "guitar" sits in a case in my garage. Maybe, someday, I'll hire someone to tweak it and then spray lacquer it, just for fun.
Total cost: approx $7000 in tools, supplies, and lost wages!
Miguel de Maria
This hurts for sure. I remember well when i was reading your posts that you have luthier tools for sale. That was the time when i startet to buy them and i was wondering what happened that you don't want to continue in the luthierie.
I was in the fortunate situation that i had already experience in woodworking due to my apprenticeship as wood turner allthough lutherie is still a whole different thing. Mistakes happened to me too, but fortunately not that fatal, that i had to stick my guitar into the oven. The first guitar came out quite acceptable and well playable and the second was already pretty good. That's why until now i didn't regret the investment that i've done so far.
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Date Jun. 7 2006 20:30:18
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: Value of Self Made Guitars (in reply to Exitao)
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So I had emailed that local luthier before you guys told me to 'forgetaboudit' and I just finally rec'd a replay back.
My email:
quote:
I am curious to ask a few questions regarding this programme:
Expenditures of time and money are the first to come to mind. How much would one be looking at for tuition and materials? And on average, how many man-hours would go into such an endeavour?
Lastly, assuming one has an average level of talent/ability and perhaps even some luck, how would the end product likely compare to guitars on the market, quality-wise?
The value of the experience should more than justify the expenses, but as for sound and playability, if we took a hypothetical average student’s average finished guitar and compared it to a retail guitar. What price range would it be comparable to? I’m sure that this probably seems like a question that’s impossible to answer because these things are too subjective, but if you had to answer out of pride, or because someone pestered you for and answer what kind of answer would you give?
His reply:
quote:
Thanks for your e-mail lets see if I can sum it up for you. I charge $80.00/hour for the instruction, average materials/supplies cost are between $600.00 to $800.00. Man-hours depends on the man( how hard you work at it , how much homework you do ect) Finished guitars are on average around the $3000.00 $4000.00 range with the highest so far being independantly appraised at $12.000.
Real names left out.
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Date Jun. 13 2006 5:22:49
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Yes exactly, life is too short. 