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RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to RobF)
Threaten? Man, let's leave it there. I've see it all a million times, (never from a luthier) and no need to go back and forth with you. I only joined here to support Stephen, and don't need the ill feeling. Life's too short.
Posts: 16045
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
From the middle of the zero fret to the middle of the twelfth fret was indeed 318.5 mm so I multiplied that number by two and got 637 mm. When I measured from the middle of the zero fret to the edge of the saddle (where the string leaves the saddle) closer to the "sound hole" (you'll see why I put that in quotation marks by looking at the video below), I got 637 mm.
To summarize this amazing thread.
Ramzi wants to know the scale. He found it correctly at 637mm, zero fret to 12 then multiplied by 2. He confused string length from same measure zero fret to saddle when he should have measured from NUT so he could see the point of and amount compensation that was done thanks to the zero fret...(whatever that number is "X" minus 637 = the amount of compensation needed to fix andelusional guitars).
Fire frets worked an old guitar that was apparently off due to over compensation (likely frets are off relative to bridge), and made the horrible assumption that the smaller scale guitar of Ramzi must have a good 7mm going on via the zero fret, since he just saw similar correction on this repair guitar. Robj freaked out about the idea of 7mm of compensation needed for ANY guitar (and rightly so). Firefrets "saved" it by claiming 630-ish ballpark assumption for scale with anything from 1 to 7mm at play to give a 637 STRING LENGTH (ooops) despite Ramzi having first been told to do the correct SCALE calculation negating any compensation whatsoever. Also Firefrets seems to not realize that "scale" length can make or break the sale of a guitar so ballpark scales within 10 mm are like horseshoes and handgrenades for players like myself, but there are many babies out there that reject a 4mm difference.
Next egos got hurt or something do to this silly confusion of STRING VS SCALE LENGTH, even though Ramzi had one of the two correct already. We still don't know the string length of the Andelusional but maybe that is for the best. (hilariously Robj said Ramzi's guitar has no compensation! )
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
I sell many guitars per year Ricardo and always put the exact measurements in a listing. When you own 80 instruments you remember them by type, i.e, 630's, 640's etc. I don't get why folk still can't get their heads around that.
Also, it's not how you describe it. In your head, I've written 630. In my head, that could mean a variety of sizes. Please read what I wrote:
quote:
The total distance between nut and saddle is a distance that must include compensation, otherwise the guitar will not intonate well.
So for me, a measurement of 652mm isn't a 652mm scale length. It is a 650mm scale length (plus) 2mm compensation.
A measurement of 637mm is not a 637mm scale length, but a 630 'something' mm scale plus compensation. (Edited to cause less confusion)
If I have a guitar with a 643mm measurement, it is a 640mm scale length, plus 3mm compensation etc.
Obviously the distance from the nut to the middle of the 12th fret can measure what ever it measures, so I'm simplifying things slightly.
Hope that explains my logic.
Too many posts and context lost. Folk not on the same wavelength at all. Getting their knickers in a twist with far too many presumptions. Grow the **** up guys.
Posts: 16045
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
Also, it's not how you describe it. In your head, I've written 630. In my head, that could mean a variety of sizes. Please read what I wrote
Ok:
quote:
I suspect the 630mm mentioned by Firefrets is a typo? Otherwise, I don't know how that was arrived at based on the information presented.(Robj)
A measurement of 637mm is not a 637mm scale length, but a 630 'something' mm scale plus 7mm compensation. (Edited to cause less confusion)
Hope that explains my logic. (Firefrets)
Even Faulk understood this wrong with his "you mean 634 or 5 with 2 or 3mm comp."
NO GUYS!. Ramzi gave the correct scale, there is no assumption to be made about compensation because THAT IS INCLUDED BY MEASURING FROM ZERO FRET. You guys are hashing out the pink elephant of string length which was information NEVER GIVEN ONCE IN THIS THREAD.
quote:
Can't believe there is third world war going on because of few mm ,,,, in a forum with only 10 people left, this **** is funny.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
Does "Robj" stand for "Rob the Jerk"? Hahaha 🤣
I said Ramzi's guitar has no compensation because that's what he measured. Maybe those guys making the Anda....anda...andawooowwoowwooo guitars know more than we give them credit for...
Also, this isn't the first thread where I've given good and accurate information and a couple of the other regulars jump on and step all over it, often just repeating pretty well exactly what I just said. They then high five each other for solving the OP's problem and ride off into the sunset.
For my part, I use Macs and the browser on the latest software crashes out on unsecured http sites like this one. They automatically swap in https and then hang. It's beyond frustrating even accessing the place. I have to use an old device with obsolete software at this point. So, all in all, this is not a lot of fun for me anymore. I came here with the best of intentions and if I leave it'll be because I can't access the place.
I'd like to say I bear no grudges but when someone takes it upon themselves to threaten violence, well, I don't tend to forget that and I don't tend to back down either. I was tormented by a violent thug a few years back, who for years I had tried to keep at bay through diplomacy, and it upended my life, almost drove me to a breakdown and came damned near to ruining my health. Then I made some decisions and stood up to the guy. I guess he could see in my eyes where it was headed. He backed off, but I won't be bullied again. As I said I'm a Canadian. People would do well to understand what that means these days.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
The 630 isn't a typo, it was a generalisation that I shouldn't have made, as other people won't realise. Writing 7mm comp was a mistake, as it looks like I meant a guitar should have 7mm compensation. If the guitar is 636 then 637 is 1mm compensation. It just sounded odd to other people, because I wasn't specific. The problem with forums is most who talk about it don't do it. When you're talking to guys who do it, you tend to expect them to fill the gaps in themselves, not take it as an opportunity to cause an argument.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to RobF)
quote:
I'd like to say I bear no grudges but when someone takes it upon themselves to threaten violence, well, I don't tend to forget that and I don't tend to back down either. I was tormented by a violent thug a few years back, who for years I had tried to keep at bay through diplomacy, and it upended my life, almost drove me to a breakdown and came damned near to ruining my health. Then I made some decisions and stood up to the guy. I guess he could see in my eyes where it was headed. He backed off, but I won't be bullied again. As I said I'm a Canadian. People would do well to understand what that means these days.
That's the second time you've said that. Show me where anybody has threatened violence? Are you ok Rob? Are you high? Are you hallucinating?
I'm 57 years of age mate, and have emphysema, hence why I now French polish and not spray. I'm lucky if I get up the stairs without coughing. I'm not violent ha ha.
Is this because I used a boxing and MMA example? Ha ha, surely not. It can't be.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to RobF)
quote:
Also, this isn't the first thread where I've given good and accurate information and a couple of the other regulars jump on and step all over it, often just repeating pretty well exactly what I just said. They then high five each other for solving the OP's problem and ride off into the sunset.
Is that what this is about for you Rob? Think about that man. It takes me a long time to write a reply. By the time I press submit, there can be many other posts.
This is a forum. It's where we chill sometimes as guys who work with guitars. It's not somewhere to score points.
You have about 10 active members. Some of us are taking a break from work when we post here. We don't have time to dot all the i's. Sometimes our heads are already full of numbers when talking to others about their numbers.
Posts: 16045
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to RobF)
quote:
I said Ramzi's guitar has no compensation because that's what he measured.
-Robj
Ramzi measured from the Zero fret to 12 and doubled it. The zero fret is a compensation for the scale, inherent to the measurement. Compensation can be spread out across the frets' positions or added to the position of the bridge, all in relation to the string length. Your statement implies to me that "hurray there is no EXTRA compensation" because the 12th fret 2x= the same number as the bridge position. If it was different, as in plus a mm or so, that would be compensated additional to the already compensated scale via the zero fret ahead of the nut. To me compensation on top of compensation was hilarious. Maybe it is not to others, sorry.
quote:
If the guitar is 636 then 637 is 1mm compensation.
- Firefrets
And you get TWO different numbers how exactly? By comparing STRING LENGTH (Y) TO SCALE LENGTH (X) the difference (-) being compensation (C). You were already given the "636" (X) which happened to be the final answer of Y-C, THE SCALE LENGTH (X). 636 is the SCALE measure (X), and 637 is the STRING MEASURE (Y). You read Ramiz's measure that was given (X=637mm) as the STRING LENGTH MEASURE (Y), which it never was I am afraid, then defend your answer as if it were the wrong measure. WE STLL DONT KNOW THE STRING LENGTH WHICH IS LONGER THAN FREAKING 637mm (Y=X+C compensation)!!!!!!!!!!
You infer C compensation as 637 (Y-C) gives 630 something value (X) ....WRONG. It is 637 (X) + C = Y.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Ramzi measured from the Zero fret to 12 and doubled it....
I think he said he measured it both ways, Ricardo, arriving at 637mm with either method, which prompted estebanana to suggest he might have an issue with the measurement tool.
Sincerely, RobJ
I welcome people to reread the thread and draw their own conclusions but please take into account that some of the posts have been edited (not by me) to soften the stupidity. The ongoing insults being levied towards me are childish and beneath the standards of this forum, certainly not worthy of response, so I'll take my leave.
Best, RobF
P.S. Just FYI and for clarity's sake..."From the middle of the zero fret to the middle of the twelfth fret was indeed 318.5 mm so I multiplied that number by two and got 637 mm. When I measured from the middle of the zero fret to the edge of the saddle (where the string leaves the saddle) closer to the "sound hole" (you'll see why I put that in quotation marks by looking at the video below), I got 637 mm." -Ramzi (about ten posts in on page 1)
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
- Firefrets
And you get TWO different numbers how exactly? By comparing STRING LENGTH TO SCALE LENGTH. You were already given the "636" which happened to be the final answer, THE SCALE LENGTH. 636 is the SCALE measure, and 637 is the STRING MEASURE. You read Ramiz's measure that was given (637mm) as the STRING LENGTH MEASURE, which it never was I am afraid, then defend your answer as if it were the wrong measure. WE STLL DONT KNOW THE STRING LENGTH WHICH IS LONGER THAN FREAKING 637mm!!!!!!!!!!
You infer X compensation as 637-X gives 630 something ....WRONG. It is 637 + X = Y.
This was the first reply. Note the words in brackets:
quote:
It's a 630mm scale length (in my head). The extra is added compensation. 630's need more compensation than 650's.
I've said 'in my head'. The fact I'm dealing with people who can't understand what that means is a problem. Also Ricardo, you're one of my favourite flamenco players, but are you going to give me a lecture on intonation? Stay in your lane man.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
The ongoing insults being levied towards me are childish and beneath the standards of this forum, certainly not worthy of response, so I'll take my leave.
Best, RobF
You're offended by everything and ashamed of nothing.
I think I'm done here guys. Too competitive and not at all rewarding. I'll leave you to it I think, as can't see this working out. It's like a pit of angriness.
Posts: 16045
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
I've said 'in my head'. The fact I'm dealing with people who can't understand what that means is a problem.
The problem was simple. You inferred scale length as a different value than what you were given. There was no "extra", it was an absolute value. You read his measure as String length, when it was the already compensated scale length. If you had guessed his string length might be 640, then that would have made sense.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
No mate. I didn't infer, people just interpreted it that way. I just said how I look at 630 scales. I'm not really referring to anything at that point. The fact you guys can't let things go is disappointing. You've no idea what it's like to have a pack mentality scenario. All you do is drive folk away. I don't want to discuss it further mate. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
Wow I go to my shop for 5 hours and the western hemisphere has exploded into a mess.
Teasing people about how they plate their vegetables and making open threats are two different species of friction. Let’s take a break from this aggression shall we? It’s only about guitars and we all have lessons to learn about pride and respect, and the limits of pride.
Whether one is building or repairing as your principal activity in guitar making should make no difference in how you respect the commitment of others. We’re all committing ourselves to this art and discipline ; and we’ve all sacrificed dearly to follow this way. Let’s acknowledge that and recognize each persons devotion to this work.
There’s a lot of ribbing and jousting possible between making and repairing, and that’s fun, but understand that the job is not what defines you. It’s ultimately your self honesty about where you are in the mix. We’re all just trying to get by.
As the Dude would say, This aggression will not stand man. 😂
The aggesssion will not stand because you cannot do your best work while you are angry. So whatever trick you use to get yourself in work mode in your shop, try that to get along with others.
There are people in this business who I really do not like ( none here on the Foro) and I practice not harboring friction against them. I can dislike what they do, while concurrently acknowledging they are serious and committed.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Teasing people about how they plate their vegetables and making open threats are two different species of friction. Let’s take a break from this aggression shall we?
Can somebody quote where I've been aggressive or threatening please. Then I'm done. You're all crazy.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Firefrets
quote:
Teasing people about how they plate their vegetables and making open threats are two different species of friction. Let’s take a break from this aggression shall we?
Can somebody quote where I've been aggressive or threatening please. Then I'm done. You're all crazy.
I’m not talking about you in particular as a person who’s being aggressive. It’s the aire of the situation, it’s not happy. I used to have an immense dislike of Tom Blackshear because he said nonsense, but I practiced co-existence via holding myself from going into his posts and starting stuff. Not reacting to what I perceived as his nonsense helped keep the air happier.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I've said 'in my head'. The fact I'm dealing with people who can't understand what that means is a problem.
The problem was simple. You inferred scale length as a different value than what you were given. There was no "extra", it was an absolute value. You read his measure as String length, when it was the already compensated scale length. If you had guessed his string length might be 640, then that would have made sense.
Anyway, as I was saying about compensation… If this thread gets closed we can continue in a separate thread
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I’m not talking about you in particular as a person who’s being aggressive. It’s the aire of the situation, it’s not happy. I used to have an immense dislike of Tom Blackshear because he said nonsense, but I practiced co-existence via holding myself from going into his posts and starting stuff. Not reacting to what I perceived as his nonsense helped keep the air happier.
So it’s not you, it’s the general feeling.
Rob was clearly talking to me. It's bad enough that the guy is reactional, and rude, but it's another when he accuses me of threatening him.
The term 'take you in deep water and drown you' is a sporting expression. If he thinks it was threat I'm not sure what to say. He's clearly an emotional and reactional guy, and one who likes to cause mayhem then play the victim. Who does he think he is telling somebody that they're here to learn from him? Man, I'm tired of biting my lip with you guys, so best I say nothing more x
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
You're offended by everything and ashamed of nothing.
Don't you dare speak to me that way @sshole. I know exactly where that comes from. I've vehemently and publicly spoken against Fascism and genocide and stood face to face on the other side of the line against guys like you. Take your Uber right wing BS elsewhere.
Simon, I realize the software incompatibility I've been experiencing probably means my days here are probably numbered but Firefrets has been continually violating the TOS of the Foro for over a page now with his attacks. I'm not running to Mommy or anything, I can take care of myself, but enough is enough.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to RobF)
quote:
Don't you dare speak to me that way @sshole. I know exactly where that comes from and I've vehemently stood against Fascism and genocide. Take your Uber right wing BS elsewhere.
This is what we're up against. The guy's completely unstable. It's an expression Everton fans say to Liverpool fans, as part of the banter.
You clearly look at the world in a different way man.
Posts: 16045
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
New summary of this thread:
Ramzi: my guitar is 637mm scale length, confirmed by my wife's sewing kit measure via two methods. Estebanana: Your wife's tool and your ability to measure are questionable. You need to confirm that measure with an electron microscope because likely there is hidden variable compensation. Robj: both scale and string length have been accurately measured, ramzi's guitar has zero compensation. And Rob apologized for saying mean things to Firefrets, but now takes it back. Firefrets: I don't care what measures were givin, you guys are mean to me, I don't accept Rob's apology, Ramzi is missing his hidden compensation as he measured string length not proper scale obviously cuz I like round numbers, so bye. Ricardo: Ramzi guitar is already adjusted at the scale by the zero fret, but you guys seem to be in disbelief because guitars MUST be compensated, or likely would be, and no way Ramzi could be measuring it correctly, he is giving a figure either wrong or it is string length proper, as one should measure string length proper from the ZERO fret anyway, so we must infer some compensation hiding in these figures. If only Ramzi could remeasure that thing. Ramzi: I have sold my 637 scale guitar on eBay already, no further measurements will be made. Arash: Foro is active again!
Posts: 4645
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Arash: Foro is active again!
Side note:
i accidentally clicked register, and realized nobody can even register anymore in the foro?? "No new members acceped" - Apparently I missed a lot here. No wonder it gets emptier, if nobody can even register ??
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RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Firefrets
The 630 isn't a typo, it was a generalisation that I shouldn't have made
A "generalization"(*).. you're so full of shiite. Apparently there is nothing bigger than your desire not to lose face by admitting you were sloppy/wrong exactly in a context where precision and accuracy mattered. Enough with the dust-kicking and definitely stop with the rudeness. You are not fooling anyone; just look more pathetic and small-minded. Now would be a good time to find yourself too busy for a couple of weeks, if you are incapable of changing your behaviour.
(*) Also, "generalization" does not mean rounding or approximation.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to silddx)
Sorry brother, but there were no such notes from me. I said I would rather leave the place than make any member feel unwelcome, and I meant it. The browser problem is real and is a royal pain in the butt. But my old iPad still works (for now).
But, to tell the truth, the sh*t that's been said to and about me on this thread has crossed some pretty serious lines. Not just the nastiness being levelled by one person but also having a member whom I respect mutilating my user name for a lark, while gaslighting the assessment I made to Ramzi based on what I trusted to be accurate information. That was only funny the first time but I understood it was an attempt to bring some levity to the proceedings. The gaslighting isn't funny, however, that's why the thread blew up. I still know my assessment was accurate but the events of this thread, including calling me Robj, harken back a little too closely to an era of the Foro of old, where dirt was slung at innocent parties for entertainment and reputations unnecessarily harmed. People got hurt and Simon rightly shut the proceedings down.
I avoided the place in that era and didn't join until most of the participants who behaved that way left. I have no interest in being made the butt of jokes just because I spoke in the service of truth. And before anyone jumps in and contradicts me, what I did was simply advise on how to make an accurate measure of scale length, as per the OP's request and suggested there was no compensation, which was based on the information that was presented to me, a qualified and trained (which counts) luthier. I've put in my ten thousand hours. Saying in one breath that luthiers don't understand that guitars don't need compensation and then to suggest a person is off base when they've suggested that this may actually be an example of one, because *all* guitars have compensation, is just, well how do you respond to that?
Arash says we're fighting WWIII over a couple of mm, but in guitar making that counts. Most guitar makers can easily pencil in accurate measurements down to the mm when operating under one inch and furthermore, I indicated that there are literally thousands of qualified luthiers who can do this and who turn out good work. I don't think I'm special, but I will state with confidence that I work to the highest of standards. But so does the majority of guitar makers that I've met, and in my experience that is more the norm than the exception.
It's not a matter of wearing big boy pants. It's a matter of setting boundaries. I've set mine and I hope they're respected. Otherwise I can't be here, I've no interest in being involved in abusive relationships. And a part of me says take one on the chin and admit that I was part of what is being described as toxic, but that would be an act of cowardice. I don't need the crap that has been levelled at me on this thread and I don't accept it.
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