Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
For the past few months I've been quite off the guitar. Everytime I picked it up, it didn't feel good. I didn't like the feel and the sound very much to get genuinely inspired. Until recently when I started experimenting with a "thumb only" technique. I've heard it before in "old school" playing and passages from a lot of Sabicas and PdL. That is the style of playing where the thumb not only plays the main notes of the melody, but also adds the "fills" in the form of arpegio, alzapua and staggered bass notes.
Obviously rasgueado is just as normal.
I must admit, even in this short time, it has greatly improved my concept of timing and the "potential" of just basic chords. Things "fit" more precisely and the novelty of using the thumb on the trebles and not going for the "full chord" approach is quite exciting.
I started experimenting with a "thumb only" technique.
Hello Ron;
It is fun to use different techniques and approaches to flamenco. That adds life and understanding to the music and helps to keep your interest going.
I have some interesting videos of Sabicas playing with four Gitano’s, made back in the 1930’s. In it I see the Gitano’s using the pulgar a great deal, while Sabicas is using I,M. It seems more typical from the many films I have observed and the records I have listened to that Gitano’s used the pulgar a great deal. Sabicas took the guitar to a new level. He could use either approach - his own or what was more typical.
One advantage Sabicas had was that he taught himself. As you know I am an advocate of teaching yourself after you learn the basics. That is when you will truely learn.
Maybe when you have finished with this, you can do a "pinky" only approach too.
LOL! Mike,
But it's true!
The foundation of ANY Flamenco technique has ALWAYS been pulgar IMO. Without good pulgar..you can really do nothing in Flamenco guitar IMO.. Watch the best of them...Paco..Tomatito... At least two thirds of their technique in any solo is based on a very advanced and very fast pulgar technique. Paco Peña, in his school in Rotterdam insists that his students spend the first 3 months playing EVERYTHING pulgar only.. (Note..not picado, or tremolo only... )
Why did he insist on that??...
You could have a very respectable career as an accompanist with just good rasgueado and pulgar technique IMO...but.. It would be completely boring to play solo guitar "pulgar only", so that is why soloists have to be proficient at other techniques, to carry the sound in all registers of the instrument to make it entertaining and varied, the icing on the cake.
BTW Mike...Pinky's good too... Especially in rasgueado. BUT...I hear that "minimalistic" rasgueado is what's required these days! Maybe that's why the ones I hear in some uploads sound so terribly thin and weak. I think "flojo" is the Spanish word if I remember correctly...
( I just looked it up ....it means... "weak".... "limp" ...."slack")
Yeah...I suppose that's actually a pretty descriptive word really ... "flojo".. hmm..
It's still very obvious what you wanna do. I rather use the harmless *****words then hitting on somebody with hidden and still polite looking messages.
Flojo...Florian....? Wow, Florian that's a good idea, I never thought of that! :)
Ron, I actually like the idea. Today I had a gig and I played more with the thumb. I think you're right about pulgar really being an important part of the flamenco sound.
Koella, hey man, some friendly advice--sometimes you come across as aggressive and rude. You may want to tone down your writing style and temper the jokes (I assume they are jokes) until you get to know people better.
Forghet it i dont have the energy for this anymore, noones helping anyone anymore just cheap hidden insults.
I have absolute no hard feelings against anyone, and i am not gonna make a "feel sorry for me" speach and besides i am going to a place packed with hot chiks lol.
Well.... Seems like a good idea to go back to the root of this message .
I´m the same as Ron. I have my ups and downs in my playing, and when I hit the downs, I always play a lot of thumb. It is the base of everything, and it is what makes it sound "flamenco" in my ears. Besides that it has a very inspiring feel. There something in this hammering with the thumb using the wrist on a string. It sounds cool and feels good. When I´m having an up period in my playing I play everything and enjoy it all.
Ron I just wanna get my facts straight are you in anyway having a go at me ?
Flo...Would I ever argue with you?
OK..OK...I see it now.. You think flojo was cryptic for florian? Yeah?
Well you're putting two and two together and making five!
The only other language I have any knowledge at all about is Spanish. Spanish to me has a lot of words and phrases that just seem (phonetically) much more descriptive and expressive than their English equivalents.
"Strong", starts off good but ends hanging in the air with the "ng" ending. Whereas "Fuerte"...well you can build up the pressure of the "F", then release it and finish with the hard "te", like a golpe. "Weak", is a neutral sounding word (like "week" as in 7 days) it conveys nothing sound wise. But "Flojo" is like a release of air like a deflating balloon and sounds all floppy and fleecy (as in flock).
The word just came into my head and I was just thinking what a great word it was. I was totally astonished at Koella's response and language. I quickly looked up the word to make sure I had remembered it correctly, or if it had some other meaning I was not aware of, and edited my post in case it had some bad meaning in Dutch or something. I went to bed puzzled.
Not sure of the story behind what I am reading here, maybe just misunderstanding? But Ron what I don't get is this statement:
quote]BUT...I hear that "minimalistic" rasgueado is what's required these days! Maybe that's why the ones I hear in some uploads sound so terribly thin and weak. [/quote]
Is that a tongue in cheek statement, or did you really "hear" that somewhere or think that yourself?
If it is meant as a crack at someone's playing or something they said, I too would be offended. If not, what in the world gave you this silly idea?
Ricardo, Yeah..it was mainly tongue in cheek as you guessed. But, there is a more serious aspect... This is a site which pulls in a lot of folk who have heard Flamenco guitar for the first time, or who have made the first steps.
I've read a few "helpful" posts which have gone along the lines of..
"Yeah..the big rolling Sabicas style rasgueados aren't done anymore. Today the new players play with a lighter touch...maybe a bit of m,i,i,i or a,i,i,i.. etc "
To me this is a drastic generalisation.
I don't know when it started (I'm sure you'll know better on this), but I was a big fan of Vincente in the early 90's. I loved his minimalistic/direct, very poetic kind of style and the use of these light "tinkling" rasgueados in the middle of phrases.
Since then, (since everybody loved it too, obviously) guitarristas have adopted that into their style....but Vincente is still the master of this way of playing IMO. The guy is a guitar genius! (He can still play pretty powerful rasgueado...but that seems to be ignored somehow.)
OK...back to reality.
My main concern would be that newcomers see the old style Sabicas/Early Paco stuff as being "over" now.
This is the "new" way of doing it.
So folk maybe strive to get that gentle tinkling tone instead of just trying to learn "generic" stuff, which would me more appropriate for that stage IMO. It's great as a "device", but not something to base your general rasgueado technique on IMO.
On the uploads question..yeah I've heard it on this site. Ricardo, I don't have a "crack" at folk doing their best, given the information they've got. Do you really think that's where I'm at?
Would "modern" maybe cover folk say like Tomatito? He is getting on a bit now...must be in his '40s maybe? Sure..he can tinkle a bit and be very intimate and make the guitar weep too. But on his Camaron accompaniment he can also play rasgueado like he's practically gonna bust the strings!
So what I'm saying, especially to the newcomer, is that it is not true that everything is "al aire" now with moody tinkling tones.
I saw your teacher Gerardo in Dundee last year as you know. Sure he played incredibly delicate and intricate and breathtakingly virtuoso stuff which just wowed me out.
BUT..he intersperced the concert with a couple of "down home" Bulerias, with Carmen Cortes dancing, in which he was ripping the guitar up like the best of them! The guy was really slammin' the guitar! Even the (mainly) Classical audience were jaw dropped and tapping their feet!!
So don't let's say that the "al aire" light style is the "modern" way of playing, lest we misinform folk out there.
My own advice to beginners would be... Listen a lot and don't follow any particular guitarist's style.
(I'll probably get death threats now when folk have managed to "decode" the "hidden" meanings behind this post. )
I don't know when it started (I'm sure you'll know better on this), but I was a big fan of Vincente in the early 90's. I loved his minimalistic/direct, very poetic kind of style and the use of these light "tinkling" rasgueados in the middle of phrases.
Oh ok, I know where you are coming from. I feel Vicente leaves a lot of spaces and does dynamics on the soft side. Tomatito and others too lately, but honestly I find his rasguedos very hard driving at times, very sharp and attacking. In fact that is sort of the point of his "tinkling", to let the rasgueados that are powerfull and sharp have more drama, more impact.
Yeah there is a general trend to more dynamic (suave or wimpy?) playing. But I am not always comfortable with generalizations. That is why some confusion results. For example, Tio Arango, Reina de Silia, Mandaito, the two bulerias on the latest CD by Vicente Amigo, have some very powerful and sharp rasgueado statements. On the other hand Nunez's Trafalgar only has 2 very short rasgueados (mii) in the whole piece. But to say that nowadays THE way to rasgueados is to "tinkle", yeah that is not fair. There was some "tinkling" going on in the old days too. Depends on the specific thing required. You can't "tinkle" for a dancer regardless if you play modern or trad.
ORIGINAL: Ron.M I've read a few "helpful" posts which have gone along the lines of..
"Yeah..the big rolling Sabicas style rasgueados aren't done anymore. Today the new players play with a lighter touch...maybe a bit of m,i,i,i or a,i,i,i.. etc "
To me this is a drastic generalisation.
Generalisation is always risky, but IMO technique has moved on and modern guitarists go for cleanly articulated separated strokes where as the older school tend to get more of a rolling sound. Just listen to just about any modern Alegria intro compas - Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-dah... as opposed to Brrrrrrrr-rah. I have some Tomatito and some Sabicas on my desk and the difference is obvious.
However, I wouldn't describe the modern players as playing with a lighter touch, except maybe in their solo works. But to me this is often about 'hinting' or 'implying' lines - referencing what you might 'expect' to hear. I hear this a lot in Tomatitos playing.
Plenty of power when they want to though, even with the clean articulation -a good example would be the end rasgueo sequence of Tio Arango; clean lines, but very powerful.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Thumb Only" Technique (in reply to Jon Boyes)
quote:
Generalisation is always risky, but IMO technique has moved on and modern guitarists go for cleanly articulated separated strokes where as the older school tend to get more of a rolling sound. Just listen to just about any modern Alegria intro compas - Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-dah... as opposed to Brrrrrrrr-rah. I have some Tomatito and some Sabicas on my desk and the difference is obvious.
This has moved from THUMB only, to rasgueados...but it is Ron's fault!
I feel that the specific technique of da da da da da, separated rhythmic strokes vs Brrrrrr typical 5 stroke rolls, is a personal playing choice and not necessarily a new or "modern" technique idea. I mean the technique of separate strokes is not new, even though the modern trend is to NOT do the 5 stroke brushing rasg. much (in agreement with your statement).
Listen to Esteban Sanlucar's Soleares (maestros de la guitarra flamenca vol. 3 of the 6 vol. series) for example. He does clear separated strokes, probably amii, just like tomatito and the rest, and that was during Sabicas era. Even Sabicas used separated strokes for seguiriyas quite frequently. So the TECHNIQUE is not new, just the idea to not use so much the 5 stroke brushing sound. But even PDL's most modern alegrias (la barrosa has not been bumped down to "old school" by any new stuff I have heard, and his latest version is an extension of the same falseta ideas), using a mix of 5 stroke brrrrrr and separate strokes. Paco has been doing that mix since his early records. Listen to Celosa on Fantasia, brrrrrr, and da da da da in the same piece.
Printable Version
. 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread