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RE: picado and metronome   You are logged in as Guest
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silddx

Posts: 868
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to rafapak

quote:

the problem with picado videos is that they show finished product but they say little about manufacturing proces


I wish you'd get some face to face lessons.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2024 0:54:44
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15483
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to rafapak

quote:

what do you mean when you say speed is rhythm control ? can you be more specific ?


keeping a beat is a feeling. But how to do it? What technique? There are many. What has to happen is control of the subdivisions of a basic beat. Whether strumming, playing single notes, or even resting as the beat moves by, all require CONTROL of the timing. The more control you have, the more "speed" you acquire, or what people outside of your subjective experience might think is "speed". In reality it is just subdivisions of a beat feeling. You have to FEEL the subdivisions, in fact that is how you keep a beat. Nobody keeps a beat by guessing when the heck the next pulse is going to come. You have to FEEL all the spaces between, and in this space are subdivisions that have to be very well controlled so that the beat is not coming early or late. So you don't guess...you KNOW where the beat is. And then "speeding up" deliberately, called "subida". When the dancer goes faster and you lock in....lock in to what? How to stay together if it is "speeding up"??? Again it is subdivision...a feeling of time. Each little click of the heel and toe. There you will find "picado" speed by how well you feel each little click.

Guess how you learn all that without annoying people that are better at it than you, patiently waiting while you get it figured out? With a metronome at home. Or where ever you take your guitar. Paco de Lucia has one in his guitar case as of 2004. His whole life probably. And he told Farruco...whose grandfather was probably rolling in the grave...however the kid admitted that was THE WAY to get there. Metronome: your best friend. Merry Christmas!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2024 8:58:22
 
AndresK

Posts: 359
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
From: Patras, Greece

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to Ricardo

Thank you for the inspiration again Ricardo. I do use a metronome almost everyday for 30 years, nevertheless I still suck

But it has been a great companion and a guide all the way through and still is. Your post about subdivisions lit a spark once more today so I can study again enthusiastically as I do everyday. Right after reading this I immediately remembered John McLaughlin and Shakti, so after hearing "Zakir" to get into the emotional state of Christmas, as I hear it as a song full of love, I listened to "Maya" from the Remember Shakti The believer album, to get on the metronome with joy!

Merry Christmas!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2024 10:21:59
 
AndresK

Posts: 359
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
From: Patras, Greece

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to rafapak

Have some lessons with Ricardo just a few for start if you are not sure. You will be blown away with your speed development along with other more important things about music and flamenco. As stated on many posts in this thread the metronome is a very efficient way to get there if used properly, and there are many ways to do that.

After some time on the "right" path of learning you actually get unlimited ideas for rhythmic studying with the metronome, on scales, strumming etc. May I suggest to also use sponge or some kind of mute on the guitar for some of your studying with the metronome, so you can hear exactly where you land on the beat.

But again, endless suggestions. You have to have a guide to get solid in the first steps. There is nothing wrong with that.

When I got to Madrid in 2007 I already played the guitar for almost 13 years. Nevertheless when I met Jeronimo and he asked what is that I would like to learn I first asked about the basic technique of the guitar playing, the absolute basics, so he could teach me like it was the first time I got my hands on the guitar.

As Michael said : "stop it, get some help"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2024 10:36:06
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1763
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to silddx

quote:

Pretty sure you guessed wrong. I infer from what Ricardo is saying that you need perfect physical control and strictly metronomic execution. If you can't do it slow you can't do it fast.

LoL. You were wrong. No physical control is needed for rhythmic control and playing fast.
Rhythmic modulation is strictly metronomic execution.
Mr. Marlow mentioned what I wrote in my post. Plus he pointed out the importance of time feeling.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2024 11:45:53
 
silddx

Posts: 868
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to devilhand

quote:

LoL.


Merry Christmas, Marvin.

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The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2024 15:01:13
 
rafapak

 

Posts: 317
Joined: Aug. 9 2015
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to AndresK

quote:

Have some lessons with Ricardo

i already asked Mr Marlow for lesson. I hope he will find time for me
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2024 20:38:30
 
Stu

Posts: 2793
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to rafapak

Have some lessons with devilhand!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2024 21:18:42
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1763
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to Stu

I'm not a maestro. I don't teach. I just play and give my humble opinion on the foro.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 26 2024 21:25:48
 
rafapak

 

Posts: 317
Joined: Aug. 9 2015
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to devilhand

I don't think I understand properly when Mr Marlow is talking about feeling beat subdivisions. I think most of us know that beat can be subdivided into two parts-eight notes, four parts -sixteenth notes etc. It can be divided into triplets etc. Does playing quarter notes, eight notes, sixteenth notes develop your speed ? Anybody can play eight notes, sixteenth notes but still we are not fast picado players. Do you know guys what Mr Marlow really means but I have trouble to get it ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 26 2024 21:58:01
 
kitarist

Posts: 1751
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

I'm not a maestro. I don't teach. I just play and give my humble opinion on the foro.


Yeah, no, your opinions are not humble. That stock phrase doesn't really apply in your case.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 26 2024 22:37:43
 
Stu

Posts: 2793
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to devilhand



I know you're not a maestro, and your humility needs of work.

You come across like a 'know it all' but clearly know not a lot.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2024 0:27:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15483
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to rafapak

quote:

Does playing quarter notes, eight notes, sixteenth notes develop your speed ?


assuming you can do it correctly at tempo required. That is what the metronome helps you with, even if your name is "Paco de Lucia" or "Farruco", or "Al Dimeola".

quote:

Anybody can play eight notes, sixteenth notes but
No, they actually CAN NOT. That is the whole point. You have to practice to be able to control those at the required tempo.

quote:

we are not fast picado players. Do you know guys what Mr Marlow really means but I have trouble to get it ?


All techniques are distinct mechanics but none the less you have to control the timing of them. If you can do a fast strum or ligado, fast as in CONTROLLED 16ths at 150 bpm, then you view picado the same way even though the mechanics are different. Sometimes slow speed only takes you so far because it is like you are are doing quarter notes but you NEED to do 16ths. The metronome helps you find where your true TEMPO exists so you can work toward your goal. If you can do 8th notes easily at 150, well those are 16ths at 75 bpm, and from there you see what work you need to do.

You will find a speed limit somewhere above 75, below 150. To break the speed wall you do "speed burst" exercises in rhythm, gradually moving past that barrier on toward the goal. Finally you achieve the goal, but realize you can do speed burst exercise much quicker than 150 and you move the yard stick. You never stop really, at least I have not. I know what my limits are for the gig and know who the fastest picado guys are and what they are doing speed wise with no intention to reach them, but always headed that way.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2024 18:33:09
 
rafapak

 

Posts: 317
Joined: Aug. 9 2015
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to Ricardo

thanks for reply
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2024 18:39:05
 
hxwhf72752003

Posts: 151
Joined: Mar. 19 2024
From: Hunan, China

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to rafapak

I think maybe it's finding the beat point in Picado? I usually try to find the notes which on the beat and use them as nodes to control my speed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2024 19:28:32
 
rafapak

 

Posts: 317
Joined: Aug. 9 2015
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to Ricardo

are we always supposed to practice in threshold tempos ?
lets say your threshold tempo is 200 eight notes . should we try 205 all the time ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2024 19:49:27
 
silddx

Posts: 868
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to rafapak

Get this book, it is excellent, my tutor strongly recommended it and I have found it very helpful.

Practicing Music by Design: Historic Virtuosi on Peak Performance
Christopher Berg.


https://blog.christopherberg.com

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The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2024 16:01:12
 
kitarist

Posts: 1751
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to silddx

quote:

Practicing Music by Design: Historic Virtuosi on Peak Performance
Christopher Berg.

https://blog.christopherberg.com


FYI, for more details, abstracts of each chapter here: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9780429199790/practicing-music-design-christopher-berg

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2024 18:19:34
 
Brendan

Posts: 364
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to rafapak

No.

For any technique, first set the metronome painfully slow, so that you can attend to every detail of the mechanism. Exactly which spot of your fingertip is striking the string? Where on the string? How much is each knuckle contributing? How much follow-through? Etc. Are you doing it right? If you can’t do it slowly, you certainly can’t do it fast.

Once you’re doing it right very slowly, push the metronome up a bit so that you’re playing fluidly and comfortably. Are you still doing it right?

If yes, jack the speed up by notches until you start pushing your threshold.

You won’t develop control by always trying to play at the speed where your control is giving out. Playing at your breaking point is worthwhile mostly because it shows you where your weak spot is. You can then slow right down again and work on that very thing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2024 21:28:24
 
rafapak

 

Posts: 317
Joined: Aug. 9 2015
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to Brendan

thanks for reply
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2024 0:45:25
 
JasonM

Posts: 2124
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to rafapak

It’s like you have to feel and control the force, rather than swinging your lightsaber as fast as you can Hoping you’ll hit one of those blaster bolts. It’s not easy!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2024 2:55:07
 
AndresK

Posts: 359
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
From: Patras, Greece

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to JasonM

but so true
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2024 17:52:38
 
Mark2

Posts: 1969
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to JasonM

True but don't forget what Yoda said "Too old to begin the training"

That is a reality for many, and there is no sense denying it. The few guys I've seen who have fast picado that were not brought up in the tradition had classical guitar training. I'm sure there are exceptions, and I have to believe that if you are putting in full time hours in your playing, you have a chance to have good solid, and fast picado. I think.

"So your saying there's a chance!"

Lloyd Christmas



quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

It’s like you have to feel and control the force, rather than swinging your lightsaber as fast as you can Hoping you’ll hit one of those blaster bolts. It’s not easy!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2024 21:28:11
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1763
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to Mark2

quote:


"So your saying there's a chance!"



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2024 22:37:33
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3634
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to silddx

quote:

Get this book, it is excellent, my tutor strongly recommended it and I have found it very helpful.

Practicing Music by Design: Historic Virtuosi on Peak Performance
Christopher Berg.

https://blog.christopherberg.com


But bear in mind this book explores the history of 19th Century classical music pedagogy, mostly for violin and piano, and the parallels with modern neuro/physiology... as such it's more theoretical/philosophical than something like Scott Tenants Pumping Nylon or Christopher Berg's own Mastering Guitar Technique: Process and Essence, which are more practical.

So Ramon did eventually get the book... i told him about it and the last thing i heard from him was that he ordered it but the order was cancelled as it was out of stock.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2024 22:39:38
 
silddx

Posts: 868
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

So Ramon did eventually get the book... i


He did. A few years ago.

I like the pumping nylon video, but Berg's book is a different kettle of trout.

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The early bird catches the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2024 14:48:41
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3634
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: picado and metronome (in reply to silddx

quote:

I like the pumping nylon video, but Berg's book is a different kettle of trout.


I meant the pumping nylon book. I have seen the video, from what i remember it is short and incomplete i.e. doesn't have all of the stuff from the book.

That Christopher Berg's Practicing Music by Design is a "different kettle of trout" is what I was trying to say - "it's more theoretical/philosophical than something like Scott Tenants Pumping Nylon [BOOK!] or Christopher Berg's own Mastering Guitar Technique: Process and Essence [BOOK!], which are more practical."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2025 20:11:19
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