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For a Flamenco guitar a Quick reaction is in common desireable. For a classical guitar a long sustain Is in common desirable. Does it make sense that a bridge with low density kg/m3 Is needed to make this possible, the waves are transported quicker? And a higher density bridge gives more sustain?
Example Rosewoods have a density around 800-1000 kg/m3 which is common used (maybe with reason). Walnut has a lower density. Would this be better for a Flamenco? As a higher density like ebony is great for a classical guitar?
My belief is your best chance at success when starting out is to follow tried and true patterns using standard materials. It's too early in the game to be seeking out alternate materials and worrying about technical details such as densities, velocities, and all the other stuff that's discussed in some books and on forums. Most of that is already covered and taken care of if standard patterns, dimensions, and materials are used. It falls out of it, not the other way around.
It never hurts to observe the results and record your findings. See it as a long game. You appear to have a technical bent, so you've probably already started a journal of your building experiences. You can maintain multiple journals. Checklists, shop notes, and project details are all useful. I don't think it's necessary to maintain notes for every project, once experience is gained, but that depends on the character of the maker. There's no point in doing something if it's just a chore, after all. Some makers, Daniel Friederich being an example, kept notes for their entire career. In Friederich's case, quite copious notes. It would be beneficial to seek out interviews with him where he has explained his methodology in that respect. There's good ideas to be gained there. My personal feeling is the bulk of the benefit from record keeping is in the doing. The note taking, in itself, is beneficial as it forces one to elucidate their observations and experiences. Personally, I do refer back my notes to remind me of things because I have to. I make jigs and the like and then can't figure out how to use them later on, so in my case it's needed. But I'm convinced a lot of benefit just comes from being able to compose one's thoughts enough to write them down with some measure of clarity.
The main thing I'm trying to say, so that I don't go on forever, is your best chance at success is to follow what has been successful for other makers before you and build upon that once more experience and knowledge is gained. Pick a successful plan, follow it using the materials suggested in the plan, and then learn from that. Which is what you're already doing, actually. I'm absolutely not suggesting that you ignore or stifle your thirst for knowledge, just that at the beginning the how's are perhaps more important than the why's.
Questions about alternate woods like walnut and ebony are fine, they are not stupid questions, but honestly are a diversion at this point. You already know a rosewood bridge is the standard and you can get the dimensions for the bridge from your plan and that is the least painful path forward. Trust me on this, please don't waste your time trying to reinvent the wheel. Better to pay attention to the structure, itself. That's more important than a lot of the minutiae that people focus upon on these forums when starting out. Try to understand structure and then things like material properties, bracing patterns, and the like start to make more sense. For flamenco, keep it simple.
I've gotten in trouble for saying stuff like this on here before, and I realize I don't always say things as well as I think I am when writing them down, so a lot of that's on me to learn how to communicate better. Still, it was really discouraging for me, and I don't want to be discouraging to you. I can only say it's the best advice I can muster. Don't shoot the messenger, a lot of this is just common sense but maybe it's not as obvious when starting out because the whole endeavour can seem a little overwhelming at first.
For a Flamenco guitar a Quick reaction is in common desireable. For a classical guitar a long sustain Is in common desirable. Does it make sense that a bridge with low density kg/m3 Is needed to make this possible, the waves are transported quicker? And a higher density bridge gives more sustain?
Example Rosewoods have a density around 800-1000 kg/m3 which is common used (maybe with reason). Walnut has a lower density. Would this be better for a Flamenco? As a higher density like ebony is great for a classical guitar?
Have a good sunday!
I didn’t read Rob’s post yet, but do not use ebony for classical guitar bridges. They damp the energy between the string vibration and the top. Ebony is inefficient so much that steel string makers really are against it now.
A good stable piece of rosewood is probably the best choice for a bridge. Walnut is good, Cherry is good, and Maple too. In a blind test it’s very unlikely that anyone will be able to hear any difference between those woods.
Wood that’s too dense is bad. Anything more dense than a nice rosewood isn’t good. Buyers usually get spooked by blond colored bridges, but they work just fine. All the numbers and density measurements mean relatively nothing, because the relationships between the top, bracing, bridge are all too complex to understand. The people that build guitars and test them with tone generation equipment factor in how heavy the bridge is in relation to the way the top is vibrating, but that’s a whole separate subject. You’d have to study with an expert in that stuff to learn in depth.
The Trevor Gore book lays out a math / engineering framework to understand how bridge density and tops work, but I can’t remember if he addressed that separately… I have the book so I’ll look.
Flamenco bridges are low and have less material in them, so they have less mass anyway. They usually wiegh between 18 and 20 grams. The wings are usually about 3.5 mm thick ( approximately)
It’s probably not a factor that a wood is a certain density, but that it’s scaped and shaped to fit well and the bridge is flexible, but not too flexible. That has to do with thinning the wings. Many people made several bridges ahead of time and choose one or two to fine tune to go with a guitar ready for a bridge.
I do appreciate your guidance and honousty, taking the time to help me, thank you. And yes I know how it works, just start building and making mistakes to learn. On the other hand this is forum to find sameminded people to talk about things we like. For me it's also a social aspect and the thirst of learning more, to keep the drive alive! Those thirsty beginners :-)
I have a long past in the martial arts world, having trained in Japan. The Japanese train without asking questions, undergoing the process and learn. The Westerners ask questions about things they only can find out just by training. They are not always ready for the answers as they will not understand in the right perspective at the level they are in, so wrongly translated as to say. Still the Japanese listened very well to the master and the people who were ready for that level, could learn from it. Even if only 10% sticks, it's a win.
It's a good idea to find out the journals of Friederich, are they not published in the new book?
About the bridge material. I have some amazon rosewood, indian rosewood and madagascar and bois de rose bridges now. With a hammer I try to hear the differences but they are very small. Even the same wood make high and low sounds???? The density theory says that all rosewoods go between 800-1000 kg/m3 between all these types of which the amazon is the biggest density, still a rosewood. But maybe I am too much going in depth which probably is a waste of time because of the small differences.
Bridgeplate About structure I would like to ask a basic question if you don't mind. I used to build 2 guitars on the Barbero plan. After those 2 I noticed I made an bridgeplate (under the bridge) which is not shown on the plan. So in fact the Barbero has a bridge without bridgeplate.....
Thats why I think of making two almost identical guitars, one with and one without the bridgeplate. Do you know what the bridgeplate is about? Is it to make the top stronger because of the strength on the bridge right? Maybe some stifness for controlling sound? Do you think it is wise to build one without a bridgeplate on a 1.9/2 mm sprucetop?
Reading the Santos Hernandez book I saw he made for years, every year another bracingsystem. We use the Barbero plan, but who knows it was just one of the tryouts of him which he even didn't like at the end. That he learned from it to make it better. We will never know.
Thank you Stephen, It's good to know the differences are not that big between those woods you mention. Good to know about Trevor Gore's books, that would be a very interesting read for me. Last time I did a 2,5 mm thick bridge and the sounds is fantastic, stronger. So it's a good thing to know what you say, less material helps as well. The density is not so important anymore, but the total weight and thickness. Thanks so much for that insight!
I wish you gentlemen a good day. Kind regards, Mischa
I have a long past in the martial arts world, having trained in Japan. The Japanese train without asking questions, undergoing the process and learn. The Westerners ask questions about things they only can find out just by training. They are not always ready for the answers as they will not understand in the right perspective at the level they are in, so wrongly translated as to say. Still the Japanese listened very well to the master and the people who were ready for that level, could learn from it. Even if only 10% sticks, it's a win.
That’s interesting, I trained in a Shorin Ryu dojo in San Francisco when I lived there, but too busy to do anything now. All my adult life I’ve had a relationship with things and ideas from East Asia, I trained in Okinawan karate, studied art in China and then moved to Japan in 2013. I get the idea that westerners are too chatty and ask questions before the teacher is ready to give the information. But once you shut your mouth, it’s almost comical, the Japanese teacher takes you around and won’t stop teaching you. lol 😆
Since living here I’ve taken to the Japanese idea that the students should shut up and listen, it’s just easier, unless it’s formal discussion scenario in which everyone takes a turn talking. I was interested in this farmers’ bee keeping practice, just watching and not really asking questions, and he taught me how to keep bees Japanese style. It’s a lot of fun.
Bridge plate, contra puente, I was told by the person who drew the 1951 Barbero plan that the particular bridge plate on that one isn’t doing much because it’s cut into separate sections. I flirted with the strap under the bridge for many years, but I’m not sure it’s really necessary, I think small cross grain struts likes 6 x 6 mm range do more to change the way the top responds than the flat ribbon under the bridge.
If I use any cross grain with a fan brace pattern structure it’s usually something like a fan strut placed under the bridge and in front of the bridge. The idea is to stiffen the top in localized areas to create a complexity of small areas of stiffness that are not heavyweight. We think this lends complexity to the sound texture. Like a lattice pattern, but without the soulless machine gun sound of lattice. 😆
I built 16 or 17 of the 1951 Barbero but omitted the type of bridge plate on the plan. I either left it off or used a long strip about 3/4 “ and 1.5 mm thick tapered on the ends. I couldn’t tell the difference, they all sounded ok.
BTW the Barbero plan is a reiteration of an earlier Santos brace scheme I’ve seen on a 1920 Santos- there is probably a thread about it here on the Foro
(This extremely lengthy answer is just me saying "I don't really know", so read on at your own peril, lol.)
I've never seen a definitive answer about the use of bridge plates. I'm not even sure when the practice of using them started.
I asked my first guitar making teacher exactly the same question: why use a bridge plate? His answer was "don't use one and at some point that guitar is going to be back for a repair". I should note he makes both steel stringed and nylon stringed models and he taught how to make both types. He showed examples of old fan braced classical guitars which had the characteristic rippled top with gaps under the bridge and the glue only holding in the areas where a brace lay under the bridge. So, in his opinion, the bridge patch was used primarily to add to the long term structural integrity of the instrument.
Romanillos famously stated at some point that he could see no reason for bridge plates and stopped using them, only to start employing them again later in his career. I don't know his reasons. I have his book, so I should search through it to see if he expounds upon the reasoning further within its pages.
Bouchet was famous for the "Bouchet Bar". In his case, I think the rationale was more to add lateral stiffness and also to adjust the response. The bar was adopted by Antonio Marin Montero after his collaboration with Bouchet and it came to be associated with him as part of the Granada style of building. My second teacher, based in the Granada Provence in Spain, called it a tone control, but I never learned from him exactly what he meant by that.
So we have the full spectrum of reasons from purely structural to having a tonal influence. They're all valid, IMO. The patch, just like the bridge, is really just another brace. So, like a brace, the correct answer is "all of the above". It needs to be treated that way as part of the whole strategy. I don't think there's any cookie cutter answers.
*edit* removed a bunch of anecdotal stuff, for better or for worse....
There's books out there that use a very scientific approach to the guitar making. I think it's up to the maker to decide if that's how they want to work. I don't think science makes a better guitar. I don't think intuition does, either. I do believe intuition is informed by data, however, but the maker has to be open to receiving it. Each maker has to find a path that most suits their individual personality, in my opinion. Do that and you'll make a good guitar.
I guess I haven't really answered your question. I'm sure there's others on here who will have more firm opinions than me. I've done both. Both made good guitars. For flamenco, my leaning is towards no patch, but I'm not sure it matters.
Just like you, I was full of questions when I started making guitars. I think it's an age related thing. I read somewhere that children learn by rote, memorization, faith, basically by having an open minded acceptance of what they are being taught by the adults teaching them. Then, as we age into adults ourselves, our brains can't process information as easily that way. We need reasons and have to understand more of the fundamental principals of a subject in order to retain the information. I'm not an educator and I don't have any explanation for this, save to say I completed my formal education as an adult, after a long absence, and it definitely worked that way for me, as opposed to for the younger students. I think I was a royal pain in the butt for some teachers with all my questions and doubts, but others told me they found it refreshing and the challenge of teaching adults made them better teachers. As for me, like you, I still have more questions than answers. Maybe that's one of the motivating factors that make guitar making a life long passion.
All I will add is that I have played, and own one, Jeronimo Peña Fernandez who used EBONY bridge, (dark black wood with intricate carvings), and I assume that means very dense wood. These guitars are extremely bright, almost with a metallic attack. I actually like it even though it is different, it work great for flamenco (traditional bracing, cuz he uses some strange bracing in his classical guitars).
Manolo Franco and Manolo Sanlucar, Isidro, etc., used these guitar at times. Randy Roads had one.
Anyway, only a few times I tried none rosewood bridge, and they had the opposite response from the above description (warm and fuzzy attack around the edges).
How do you know it’s Ebony and not another wood just dyed black? Flamenco builders sometimes dyed the bridge. And anyway, a beginner would do well not to use ebony as a builder to builder advice. Ebony is like the boner killer of guitar woods 😆
thers on here who will have more firm opinions than me. I've done both. Both made good guitars. For flamenco, my leaning is towards no patch, but I'm not sure it matters.
Hello Rob, I actually did like all the words, it was NOT too long for me ( Iam reading on a big screen behind the computer so I only see a couple of sentences). They were very wise words and I am glad I just read them in time before you deleted them.
Concerning the yes or the no and all the reasons you mention, I can conclude we just don't really know. So I decided to make one with and one without the patch and let's see what will happen. Now I have the custom to make the patch very low, as you said, to stiffen and strengthening for under the bridge. In the new book of Granada guitarmakers I saw a new custom not using the patch but a small strut like the rest of the bracingstruts. Interesting.
I do believe all the energy you put in, gives the extra magic to the guitar. So knowledge and intuition/ gutfeeling together.
For what I read somwhere in the time of Barbero there were not bridgepatches used yet, it started about in the time with his student Arcangel Fernandez who made many classical guitars, mostly for the Japanese market as the Spanish were complaining always over something for what I read in the Pilar book of Madrid luthiers.
I agree with you, having the questions keeps the passiondrive going on Rob, it's with every hobby. We are priviliged with interest in things, many are not in this world.
Sounds like you have nice hobbies Stephen. Actually I have more or less the same, interesting and how nice that you live there. That's not an easy way of living. I use to go visit friends over there, also in the karate world, visiting musea with samurai armour which is an art (and very technical).
We westerners ask a lot in a country like that but we can't help it, we couldn't do like they do, we are not that disciplined. It feels very rude in their world as they are very polite. But we learn in our way, it also has many advantages which they find interesting as well.
About the small struts you talk about, are those which you can find on the Manuel Reyes plan in the middel part isn't it? Like 5 small horizontal pieces with all thinner edges. Did you figure out what they do and why not just one long strut?
I liked San Fransisco when I visited for about 14 years ago. It has a nice square like the old European cities. I only missed all the tables and seats with terraces. Great city.
Nice to meet you here. Couple of years ago I bought your CD which I like very much.
There are many dark woods which could be used. Even amazon rosewood or blackwood has a very dark brown color. If it is quite black it could indeed be ebony like the fingerboard (which sometimes is dyed black as Stephen says, as well. It is very dense and they say because of that the soundwaves are blocked more but give a longer sustain. It might give that clear bright sound you mention. Interesting.
To all, very black soundboards are quite hard to find isn't it? They all have many grey parts...
Sounds like you have nice hobbies Stephen. Actually I have more or less the same, interesting and how nice that you live there. That's not an easy way of living. I use to go visit friends over there, also in the karate world, visiting musea with samurai armour which is an art (and very technical).
We westerners ask a lot in a country like that but we can't help it, we couldn't do like they do, we are not that disciplined. It feels very rude in their world as they are very polite. But we learn in our way, it also has many advantages which they find interesting as well.
About the small struts you talk about, are those which you can find on the Manuel Reyes plan in the middel part isn't it? Like 5 small horizontal pieces with all thinner edges. Did you figure out what they do and why not just one long strut?
I liked San Fransisco when I visited for about 14 years ago. It has a nice square like the old European cities. I only missed all the tables and seats with terraces. Great city.
Westerners and Japanese people do have commonality, and I can assure you Japanese people can be rude, but not in the way you’d expect. The most difficult thing is figuring out how messages are encoded in language. What someone says may not match what the intention of the language is. The words are empty mostly and the meaning is bedded in subtle choices of word order, slight omissions in words, inflection, body posture, but wee we have all these signs in English too, but in Japan the delivery is ten times as low key. Someone could be telling another person an unequivocal NO! but it sounds like they are actually saying yes.
This tripped me up terribly until I learned how to catch on. You can also yell and raise your voiced to great effect too 😆
Personally I enjoy the fact that younger people have to show deference to older people. There was a younger American guy from the same part of California that I’m from who started an argument with me about politics in the U.S. I refuted his points politely, in a room full of teachers at the school I teach in three days a week. After which I said “End of discussion, because I’m trying to read this book.” He started the argument again and I said two or three things more which refuted his argument. Then I said, do not start this up any further because I am trying to read.
He of course with all his western male confidence started it again. I stood up and yelled at him for 3 or 4 minutes recounting his points and refuting them, told him to shut the F up and added more reasons why his opinion was garbage. All the other teachers just put thier heads down and let me yell at him. Then I said “Very well, now I am so pissed off at being disturbed from my reading that I am leaving 30 minutes early to get some peace.”
The next week the vice superintendent called me into his office and asked if I had any observations from the week before I should tell him about. I said yes, I yelled at so and so and I am sorry I disturbed the other teachers. He said why were you yelling, I said because a younger colleague was starting arguments with me after I told him to stop. He didn’t so I lectured him and left school early. Adding, “This is not America, this is Japan and a younger member of the staff may not speak to an older member or person with seniority in that argumentative manner .” He said “ i ne” ( eee-nay) which means emphatically from your gut ‘ yes that’s right’. Then he says Okay I checked the situation out with the other teachers and they said the person was picking a quarrel and wouldn’t stop, so you were justified. But don’t do it again, because I’m your boss and I tell you not to. Then he laughed and said get out of my office.
——-
On the cross strut idea it’s more like this to photo. It’s guitar I made in 2019 when I was working with this design ( which I’m not opposed to revisiting)
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To all, very black soundboards are quite hard to find isn't it? They all have many grey parts...
If you have Facebook check out Arun Anantray Kamdar in India. I've never dealt with him but some of the fingerboard and back and sides woods he posts look very nice. Might be worth adding him.
I personally don't mind some of the variegated ebonies for fingerboards, it's a good way to know it's well quartered and the right pieces can look quite aesthetically appealing, but there's no doubt it can be a hard sell.
How do you know it’s Ebony and not another wood just dyed black?
well, apparently, carving into ebony was his "thing", based on his previous non-guitar building job. So he does a veneer face plate (ebony), carves into the fingerboard down near the soundhole (ebony) and the bridge matches these characteristics. If he is carving into rosewood then dying it black it just seems to go against the concept.
also, you can check Russel Cleveland book if you have it, he as done it before.
If he’s using ebony for a bridge he’s an outlier. There’s also a technique in woodworking called ‘ebonizing’ where you dye wood to look like ebony.
There is a many centuries old history in lute and guitar making where the maker uses a lightweight fruit wood for the bridge, cherry, yew, box wood, Cuban cedar etc and uses ebony for the fingerboard. We all want a tough durable fingerboard and hopefully a light responsive bridge, the head plates veneer is a cosmetic item, so ebony is fine. But just saying, there’s nothing unusual or out of character with using ebony for a fingerboard and a fruit wood for a bridge, and then painting the bridge black to make it match the fingerboard.
I mean it’s possible, but the majority of makers aren’t not using ebony.
On the cross strut idea it’s more like this to photo. It’s guitar I made in 2019 when I was working with this design ( which I’m not opposed to revisiting)
That was a nice read about your experience there, very recognizable. I have common stories the other way around, but I leave it for now in this thread. :-) Very nice bracing, it reminds me of one I have seen from balsawood, like a frame, very light!
To all, very black soundboards are quite hard to find isn't it? They all have many grey parts...
If you have Facebook check out Arun Anantray Kamdar in India. I've never dealt with him but some of the fingerboard and back and sides woods he posts look very nice. Might be worth adding him.
I personally don't mind some of the variegated ebonies for fingerboards, it's a good way to know it's well quartered and the right pieces can look quite aesthetically appealing, but there's no doubt it can be a hard sell.
Yes I have seen this guy before. Not sure if I can trust this way of purchasing. Maybe you are right, no making a problem from some grey spots on the ebony boards, makes life easier as well :-) I had no idea this is a way to recognize quartersawn ebony fingerboards....
The variegation in itself isn't an indication of quartering, it's just easier to tell the grain orientation by looking at the end grain or flipping the piece over and seeing how the variegation lines up on the both sides. Sometimes with really black ebony it's not so easy to tell. I didn't explain that very well, my bad.
Apparently he made one that Willie Nelson got his paws on 😂 The top image with the significant scrape action on the top is perhaps the first orange guitar I ever liked. I’d really like to have one of these, specifically because they go against my own aesthetic for decoration
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JFP bridges - Ricardo, can you take a photo of yours?
I'd like to see pictures, too. But not just for the bridge, I just enjoy looking at cool guitars, so hopefully a few pictures. :)
I will in bit, with iPad. I can't right now. Meanwhile, Brune had a book (out of print) written by JPF. He would know if any of this guys guitars are super dark rosewood or ebony proper.
Looking forward to the pictures. That's a nice looking guitar. Remember, there's nothing that says he couldn't have used both over the course of his career.
Could be ebony, but could also be black Brazilian Rosewood. Regardless, that's a gorgeous guitar. Love it!
BRB. I'll grab a coffee then I'll take a picture of some black Brazilian Rosewood I have in the shop and post it here. It would make sense, considering the time frames.
....Here you go...I wet a portion with water to give a sense of how it looks under a finish. The head and bridge on your guitar do look like they have a spit coating of shellac.
P.S. This wood has been accepted and registered as pre-convention with the appropriate CDN department.
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