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Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro   You are logged in as Guest
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devilhand

 

Posts: 1709
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro 

If you do not know this youtube channel, you're not a flamenco aficionado.

https://en-clase.ideal.es/2024/09/07/pedro-manuel-moral-soriano-sociedad-de-pizarras-y-flamendro/

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2024 20:47:22
 
Stu

Posts: 2731
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to devilhand

That's a link to a webpage not a youtube channel

If you don't own a flamenco guitar then youre not an aficionado!

or maybe you do now...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2024 11:22:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15329
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to devilhand

thanks for pointing me to the people responsible for, yes, digitizing and sharing for free all the important early wax cylinders and records of flamenco cante….yet they ruined all of them in the process by sending them through unnecessary Dolby noise reduction filters that removed hiss and destroyed the sound of all the beautiful guitar playing on every single track. These filters, just like modern web cams that I am sure everyone is frustrated about that plays guitar, are designed to filter out any noise that is not in the human voice spectrum, therefore the guitar is like a background noise thing to be deleted. I prefer hiss.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2024 13:43:45
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2272
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to Stu

If you don't like el cante then youre not an aficionado!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2024 15:25:47
 
kitarist

Posts: 1732
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

yet they ruined all of them in the process by sending them through unnecessary Dolby noise reduction filters that removed hiss and destroyed the sound of all the beautiful guitar playing on every single track.


That's terrible indeed. But they must have the original digitization files, before applying filters (surely they didn't apply filters on the fly while digitizing). All they have to do is post those as well. How do we make them?

Also, the oldest posts on that channel are hilarious (?)
https://www.youtube.com/@flamendrodepizarra/videos

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2024 17:57:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15329
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to kitarist

Like this tin can sound on the guitar here, and the guitar fades in and out. I don’t think you can fix this as if they saved all the original files or something. I could imagine it went into the machine via the filters in place. Just like you can’t fix a web cam video in post. You need to start over with the right equipment starting with what is playing the analog source. I started collecting vinyl flamenco records about 10 years ago, and the guitars all sound great no matter how old the record, and the hiss and crackle pop noise is very welcome.



In the above you can notice an unusual half compas cambio in the Serneta Soleá if you orient yourself at 4:40. Mojama was Moraito’s favorite cantaor.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2024 11:43:21
 
RobF

Posts: 1697
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to Ricardo

I think there will come a time, in the not so distant future, where noise cancellation will be sophisticated enough to properly clean up these old recordings. It might even be possible now (probably is). That being the case, it would make sense that anyone doing an A/D conversion release the unadulterated version as best practice, and leave the application of noise reduction solely to the end user. Thing is, how to get that out there so it becomes a mainstream sensibility. Maybe not so easy. It might just naturally evolve in that direction, however.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2024 14:54:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15329
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to RobF

Well…this was going on in the 80s already. Dolby was a button you pushed to ruin your cassette if you so chose. Yuk. But then CDs started coming out where the hiss was gone but they were compressing the heck out of stuff to make it “loud”. Ruining dynamics and high end IMO. Audiophiles started going for higher sampling rates and such from analog transfer…but over time average joe preferred automated everything so now a lot of things are “built in” including the hiss cancellation. Unfortunately it is in the hiss frequency range that the guitar actually has nice overtones, so killing those on old analog is just killing the basic guitar tone. I don’t see how the situation can change unless people simply embrace the hiss.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2024 16:16:25
 
RobF

Posts: 1697
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to Ricardo

It's been a long while since I've thought about this stuff but I believe Dolby originally was a pre-emphasis at source, de-emphasis at receiver scheme. You weren't supposed to run Dolby noise reduction on tapes that weren't recorded with it.

I know AI is an unpopular term around here but signal processing really has come a long way since the days of cassette tapes. It's conceivable that processing could essentially identify and separate noise, although it might also have to recreate (probably with best guess) the original signal to some extent, meaning it wouldn't truly be as recorded. But I don't know, I haven't really been keeping up with this stuff at all in recent years, so no idea about the current state of affairs. It might be that tape hiss is very difficult to deal with but the snap, crackle and pop of old acetate presses might be more manageable. But, again, I'm out of my depth even talking about this so I probably should bow out of the discussion.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2024 16:56:14
 
kitarist

Posts: 1732
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I don’t think you can fix this as if they saved all the original files or something. I could imagine it went into the machine via the filters in place.


It is not supposed to be like that for old recordings; I've done this (with old Argentine tango records) many years ago and you always start from the digital file (once the pure A/D is done) to try and apply any tweaks or filtering - because with old recordings, each one is unique where it pops or crackles (if you are removing these) and ideally you would also let the record run for a bit to get a background hiss (and one-per-revolution repeated pop and crackle, if any) segment without the actual music, to work off of so as to "subtract" as best one can that from the actual signal without losing any signal quality. (meaning that you need the whole recording to analyze and compose your filters or tweaks; can't do it as you go second by second digitizing)

Now with more advanced pattern matching (confusingly called AI) we are starting to see even better results with this, so it is entirely possible to get a very good result if one had the digital file as it came out of the pure A/D conversion. To me, because these are old (and not that many) recordings, it is more likely there is - or was - a pure digital file laying around for each. As Rob says, best practice should be to always release that (along with the filtered/worked-on file, if desired).

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2024 17:44:21
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1709
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I started collecting vinyl flamenco records about 10 years ago, and the guitars all sound great no matter how old the record, and the hiss and crackle pop noise is very welcome.

How about this one? It doesn't have to be vinyl. As you can see it's a mp3 file. The hiss noise is still there.

https://archive.org/details/JUAN_MOJAMA/AUNQUE+TOQUEN+A+REBATO-SOLEARES.mp3

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2024 19:13:56
 
orsonw

Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

How about this one? It doesn't have to be vinyl. As you can see it's a mp3 file. The hiss noise is still there.

https://archive.org/details/JUAN_MOJAMA/AUNQUE+TOQUEN+A+REBATO-SOLEARES.mp3


Thanks for posting. This is better than what I've been listening to on youtube. With hiss removed not only is the guitar weaker, but Juan Mojama's voice is missing detail and less present.
e.g.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2024 20:58:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15329
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

I started collecting vinyl flamenco records about 10 years ago, and the guitars all sound great no matter how old the record, and the hiss and crackle pop noise is very welcome.

How about this one? It doesn't have to be vinyl. As you can see it's a mp3 file. The hiss noise is still there.

https://archive.org/details/JUAN_MOJAMA/AUNQUE+TOQUEN+A+REBATO-SOLEARES.mp3


Good find devil!! Well I guess if they are out there someone needs to go back and salvage all of those recordings like this. Notice every note on Montoya’s guitar is crystal and yes the voice sounds better too. The hiss and noise is a necessary evil, but considering the content and historical significance I welcome it. I have all these cds that were filtered and they are junk to me now.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2024 16:53:57
 
kitarist

Posts: 1732
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to Ricardo

The user that uploaded that album has uploaded hundreds of other audio recordings, many of which are old flamenco recordings. See here:
https://archive.org/details/@z21jj?and[]=subject%3A%22flamenco%22&and[]=mediatype%3A%22audio%22

The audio count for audio+flamenco says 336, but many(?) of these are albums with ~10 songs each.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2024 18:13:13
 
Norman Paul Kliman

 

Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 5 2023
 

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to kitarist

Some good stuff there. The “Viejo Agujetas” recording is the live one of Manuel’s father that’s been widely available for a long time, but there are two of Manuel that you guys might not have heard. Also, Enrique Morente with Manolo Sanlúcar (good period for his older falsetas), several recordings of Manuel Moneo and an interview with tío Borrico.

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https://canteytoque.es/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2024 8:37:03
 
orsonw

Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to devilhand

There is also Carlos Martín Ballester's channel playing original 78's.



He has digitized some of his collection. Below is the comparison. Though of course listening on a phone/computer to a compressed file on youtube is always much worse than a CD on a decent hi-fi system.
https://www.coleccioncarlosmartinballester.com/

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2024 9:49:57
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15329
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to orsonw

quote:

There is also Carlos Martín Ballester's channel playing original 78's.


Filtered through his cellphone.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2024 11:39:52
 
orsonw

Posts: 2019
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Sociedad Pizarras y Flamendro (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Filtered through his cellphone.


Exactly! And that's how most people also listen to music: mp3s on a phone. They have no idea what they're missing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2024 18:48:00
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