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at 9 minute 54 second he starts counting buleria rhythm but to my amateur ear he does this in different way when compared to regular 12 beats buleria rhythm. Can you guys tell in what ways his counting is different when compared to regular 12 beats counting ? I don't know spanish unfortunately so this is difficult for me to figure out what he is talking about .
Posts: 15164
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to rafapak)
I try to make folks understand that Compás is a “treatment” of some different melodies and song forms as you see fit to use with taste.
At the start of the video, he runs through the different counting methods to demonstrate how the same mechanical playing he is doing, can be used as a treatment for 3 different forms. The first was Soleá, the second a basic Waltz, and the third, the half time universal beat of 3/4 sometimes called “Abandolao” but we can insert this pattern and concept into things like Jaleo, Solea escobillas (footwork of the dancers at slower tempos), and “groovy” bulerias expressions such a as Jerez (modern not old school), Moron, Lebrija, etc.
It would be ideal to keep the first one as a “special case” where the Soleá phrase might enter the musical landscape for some reason. In otherwords, in a single performance, it might be ok you change the way you count (as it represents the way you think about a phrase) all of a sudden, to go better with the musical phrasing.
I highly recommend, since this concept seems elusive to you, that you learn to play rhythmic patterns as mechanical techniques that you can execute mindlessly with no counting, perfectly as they should be. If you don’t know, have someone check it, either a teacher or us. Get a large bag of these phrases down cold first, with metronome is ideal. Later, counting as a way to relate these mechanics to a bigger picture is much easier. But tying to learn this type of basic rhythm via counting is too hard at the start. You end up confused and hit or miss with the rhythm expression.
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to Ricardo)
thanks Ricardo for reply and for valuable information. Yes, counting is hard at my level. I found this video and this guy recommends different way of counting. Not regular counting.
Posts: 1935
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to rafapak)
Please avoid trying to learn from people who're still very much struggling themselves. This guy above is a prime example of somebody trying to teach something they haven't come close to mastering yet.
Posts: 15164
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to rafapak)
quote:
thanks Ricardo for reply and for valuable information. Yes, counting is hard at my level. I found this video and this guy recommends different way of counting. Not regular counting.
He is counting accented beats plus the contra Tiempo in hopes if you vocalize it you might just get it (hit or miss). Remember it is a bouncing ball, you don’t need to count that to keep it dribbling, what you need is mindless regularity and ease of movement while you are doing it.
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I highly recommend, since this concept seems elusive to you, that you learn to play rhythmic patterns as mechanical techniques that you can execute mindlessly with no counting, perfectly as they should be. If you don’t know, have someone check it, either a teacher or us. Get a large bag of these phrases down cold first, with metronome is ideal. Later, counting as a way to relate these mechanics to a bigger picture is much easier. But tying to learn this type of basic rhythm via counting is too hard at the start. You end up confused and hit or miss with the rhythm expression.
This has worked for me. I think I had issues feeling the chord changes and timing. For Solea, realising that often the main chord change in the compas happens on the 3 of 12 helped me a lot when listening to solea. Similarly in Buleria. Also the 123 123 12 12 12 helped me feel the compas cycle more. I am just a beginner but this did unlock something in my mind and I can feel the compas a bit better now, having done what you suggest and just drill simple compas patterns with a metronome, often set to count the 12 numbers out loud. I really enjoy doing this actually. Simple but accurate compas has it's own beauty. Helluva long way to go yet, but making process and getting joy from it.
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
At the start of the video, he runs through the different counting methods to demonstrate how the same mechanical playing he is doing, can be used as a treatment for 3 different forms. The first was Soleá, the second a basic Waltz, and the third, the half time universal beat of 3/4 sometimes called “Abandolao”
The first video is good indeed. 3 different ways of counting and feeling Bulerias compas. I wonder if there are other counting methods than these 3.
Btw, why Abandolao? Verdiales is more popular and well known.
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to Stu)
"Unlocking the essence of the buleria" sounds like the euphemism a flamenco player would use when he's been stinking up your toilet for 30 minutes and you knock at the bathroom door to ask if everything is OK.
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Posts: 2664
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
"Unlocking the essence of the buleria" sounds like the euphemism a flamenco player would use when he's been stinking up your toilet for 30 minutes and you knock at the bathroom door to ask if everything is OK.
Oh. Someone changed the video I embedded. Simon?
If so I guess I see why you did it... as my initial problem was with that tino video. But that short of the bulerias with pens was deliberate! Thought it was cool and apt.
Posts: 15164
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
quote:
"Unlocking the essence of the buleria" sounds like the euphemism a flamenco player would use when he's been stinking up your toilet for 30 minutes and you knock at the bathroom door to ask if everything is OK.
Oh. Someone changed the video I embedded. Simon?
If so I guess I see why you did it... as my initial problem was with that tino video. But that short of the bulerias with pens was deliberate! Thought it was cool and apt.
It was a good attempt. Honestly, those metronomes are not the best. She was rushing a lot at first. But the real issue is while her 2:3 was good, and it makes bulerias yes, her 4:3 was not correct. She expressed 4 correct but her 3’s are not 3’s if you focus on them, they are not even triplets. The true poly rhythm it makes, try with your two hands is “pass the goddamn butter”. Or Tah, …kiTah Tah, Taka…”. Play it L/R, RL, R, LR…
Posts: 1930
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to silddx)
Yes, while playing. I've been studying with him for a few years and he's a great teacher. He's made some great records too. He has a very personal style. At the moment I'm studying his take on accompanying a bulerias and his swing is created by not only the lack of tension, but his way of playing around the traditional accents. Things like waiting until after the 10 to close. He has a highly developed sense of compas, which of course is common among professionals.
I worked on an exercise accompanying the dance of Patricia Guerrero where she did a few tricky things including a close on 7. I asked Tino how many of those things one would be expected to catch on the fly and he said all of them, as well as much more difficult things.
quote:
ORIGINAL: silddx
quote:
This guy has the most relaxed right hand I've ever seen. Basically he has zero tension in his fingers. Something that everyone should strive for.
Posts: 2664
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
It was a good attempt. Honestly, those metronomes are not the best. She was rushing a lot at first. But the real issue is while her 2:3 was good, and it makes bulerias yes, her 4:3 was not correct. She expressed 4 correct but her 3’s are not 3’s if you focus on them, they are not even triplets. The true poly rhythm it makes, try with your two hands is “pass the goddamn butter”. Or Tah, …kiTah Tah, Taka…”. Play it L/R, RL, R, LR…
Posts: 15164
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
The silence is your 6
It's everywhere man.
Awesome. Any youtube video with guitar?
The cajon starts here “7,8, 10”, the pattern continues as a repetitive phrase. It is mainly a cajon expression, if you are looking for a continuous example. Guitar and palmas are normal.
Obviously 6 phrases (medio Compás) will break this. Here is an other example, this time knuckles on the table.
Posts: 15164
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: please help with counting buleri... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
Obviously 6 phrases (medio Compás) will break this.
Do you mean this part at 1:08 - the second half of the compas 7 8 9 10 11 12? The next compas cycle has 7 and 8 accented again and ends on 10 at 1:12?
If you mean in Soniquete, it doesn’t really do anything different there. What i was referring to is that just because you have now started to notice the pattern of accents that add up to 12, it is important to understand it is very loose rather than rigid. At any moment the music might take on an odd phrase of only 6 counts, such that the 7,8,9 will feel like 1,2,3 of the coming cycle, or vice versa, 1,2,3 becomes 7,8,9,10. See if you can find it in the very end of this piece when there is cante 6:36:
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