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Morante

 

Posts: 2208
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

cante jondo 

Anybody has an opinion why gitanos sing cante jondo better than payos (honourable excepions such as José Menese apart)?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2024 16:05:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14971
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cante jondo (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Anybody has an opinion why gitanos sing cante jondo better than payos (honourable excepions such as José Menese apart)?


I believe the answer is the gitano community kept the music closely guarded for generations via the traceable flamenco dynasties, and the payos they worked beside were involved to a certain extent, however, the way the gitano cultivates tradition (and still does, even non-flamenco musical things), and the fact it is encourage at such early ages (I perform Romanian gypsy weddings and always there are some children very advanced at guitar and singing naturally that join us with Gypsy Kings repertoire and other famous tunes), results in the majority of decent artists from this group. Conversely when payos do appear involved they tend to be exceptional precisely because it is NOT their cultural situation and they work much harder to do a convincing job, gain acceptance, etc., and the gitanos actually appreciate this level of commitment (hence I get highered for these weddings as much as certain gitanos in the community that could also do the job).

Now, the other important thing that is not given much focus but is uniquely important to this flamenco thing vs other gypsy traditions, is that inside the flamenco community there has always been A LOT of racial mixing. This is rather unusual for gypsies and seems to go hand in hand with the flamenco music to some extent. Because it is a bit taboo, you notice researchers lumping together people that might identify as payo or Gitano, keeping them separated, when the truth might be more complicated genetically. For example, my cantaor friend from Barcelona, identifies as a payo artist…however, a deeper probe into his family reveals gitano blood going back to Sevilla….and this explains too much that normally would be overlooked, does it not? My mentor Gerardo Nuñez is the only kid born in Jerez, his family being from Granada, and his sisters wanted to take dance class got him started in flamenco in that town. Being “born” into it, unlike his family members, he ends up marrying a Gypsy dancer and speaking Calo, extremely integrated into the community and history, and and it becomes difficult to separate his toque as a “payo” toque. This thing will extend to singers and dancers IMO. I believe the racial mixing thing to be part of the story from the beginning of flamenco history (my personal research has turned up names dates and places in this regard), and continues to do so. Possibly the hidden strength and beauty behind the art form that is too often overlooked.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2024 18:34:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14971
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cante jondo (in reply to Morante

Bumping for other opinions before this disappears.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2024 16:38:49
 
Morante

 

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Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: cante jondo (in reply to Ricardo



Manuel sang tonight in the Peña ( there is a concurso de la Soleá d Cádiz) and he was sensational, por soleá and seguitiyas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2024 23:33:27
 
Morante

 

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Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: cante jondo (in reply to Morante

I think that the gitanos have a special sense of dynasty: the family of Caracol can trace its origins back to 1783. Almost all were cantaores or toreros. This gives them a depth of feeling flamenco which few payo families could know.

Last night we had 4 gitanos and 3 payos: the difference was remarkable in favour of the gitanos.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2024 12:17:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14971
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cante jondo (in reply to Morante

Ole!

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2024 15:15:11
 
orsonw

Posts: 1958
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: cante jondo (in reply to Morante

Thanks for sharing the Manuel Reyes video, and insights regarding gitanos and flamenco.
Interesting point about the strong gitano sense of family and tradition, but combined with a certain openness in allowing the participation of payos who have earned it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2024 15:37:01
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: cante jondo (in reply to Morante

I'm no expert and can only really offer an idiots contribution,... but seeing as you are keen for more chat on this....

Is there any credence to the idea that gitanos have simply suffered more? Or at least understand it more due to suffering. Ya know, classic argument.... white people can't sing the blues.

I know this sounds pretty 'high school level' idea but... is this a factor at all?

Guess you'd all know if this was the case and therfore wouldn't be posing the question which leads me to think the answer is not this.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2024 13:14:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14971
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cante jondo (in reply to Stu

quote:

Is there any credence to the idea that gitanos have simply suffered more? Or at least understand it more due to suffering. Ya know, classic argument.... white people can't sing the blues.


Yes of course this is a valid argument. The only thing is, on case by case, the people more down trodden aren’t necessarily the better artists. For example, children tend to be oblivious of the hardships of life and are the first to develop flamenco skills. It is later as adults, after having experienced and contextualized the bad stuff, that they can then apply those skills in a natural way to express the deeper aspects of life. And of course it is the deeper aspects that make the music universal to the hard lives people around the globe share.

And then there is this quote of PDL, who watched his mother crying that there was not enough food for every mouth in the house. He said after the belly becomes full (after he found financial success with the guitar), what was left to “fight for”? And as an adult he noticed the “spirit” or soul or whatever, is unfulfilled and he worked on new music with this inspiration.

So long story short, yes being marginalized matters a great deal, however, the cultural aspect of closed and guarded traditions I feel is what is driving the larger numbers in regards to flamenco individual artists.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2024 15:57:54
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2208
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: cante jondo (in reply to orsonw

quote:

combined with a certain openness in allowing the participation of payos who have earned it.


I have worked with gitanos and payos, recording three discos. The only people who tried to rip me off were payos (including a death threat).

I have made 3 changes of flat. I never used a profession firm. Instead I called an amigo, padre de a fine cantaora. He called a group of his friends (all gitanos) who moved everything. After, I payed poco dinero and invited them to copas y tapas. We are all friends. I prefer to work with gitanos.

However this is Andalucía: in Barcalona things could be different
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2024 16:19:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14971
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cante jondo (in reply to Morante

quote:

I think that the gitanos have a special sense of dynasty: the family of Caracol can trace its origins back to 1783. Almost all were cantaores or toreros. This gives them a depth of feeling flamenco which few payo families could know.


Well…umm….I happen to know the grandson of Caracol personally. He knows zero about Fandango de Enrique Almendro or Soleá de Ortega, and tons about cheeseburgers. See at 1:07



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2024 18:07:16
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1637
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: cante jondo (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

He knows zero about Fandango de Enrique Almendro or Soleá de Ortega, and tons about cheeseburgers.

"Everyone’s got to eat man"

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2024 18:22:58
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