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Filip

 

Posts: 428
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

New Vicente Amigo album 

https://www.aireflamenco.com/noticias/3777-vicente-amigo-estrena-nuevo-single-de-su-proximo-disco-andenes-del-tiempo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 20:07:40
 
metalhead

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 15 2023
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Filip

Why are there so many Vicente fans in every flamenco space lol. Always thought he sounded like a wannabe Paco but did a terrible job at that, same for Antonio Rey
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 20:54:33
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1907
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

Everybody's a wannabe Paco.
Vicente and Antonio have both very distinct styles and are very good at what they do. You can argue that they've become boring and repetitive / predictable over the years (certainly my feeling).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 21:00:43
 
metalhead

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 15 2023
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

No problem with being a wannabe Paco; but their music lacks depth. It feels more like they're trying to impress their audience with 'look how good i am", complete lack of soul.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 21:04:31
 
paleto3

 

Posts: 148
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: San Diego, CA

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

Interesting comment.

I don't really listen to Antonio Rey, although I have no criticisms of him.

Vicente on the other hand has been my favorite for years. For me, he absolutely does not lack soul, although he has a few tunes that I never listen to and don't care for, like Compare Manuel, Pan Caliente, that kind of stuff.

For me, his soleá is sublime, which says a lot if someone can create within that palo well. To my ear, he does better than everyone else, but that is subjective and I probably write that here because I've enjoyed his music so much over the last 30+ years.

I don't think he's a wannabe Paco, I think he found his voice and has continued to create some amazing tunes. Tangos del arco bajo, Silia y el tiempo, and more.

Who are your favorites?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 21:12:07
 
metalhead

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 15 2023
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to paleto3

My favorites? Moraito, Paco Cepero, Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena and Ben Woods
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 21:20:24
 
silddx

Posts: 602
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

quote:

No problem with being a wannabe Paco; but their music lacks depth. It feels more like they're trying to impress their audience with 'look how good i am", complete lack of soul.


This says a lot more about you than it does the artist.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 21:51:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14971
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

My favorites? Moraito, Paco Cepero, Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena and Ben Woods


You might not realize how Paco, Ben, and many others are influenced by the innovations Vicente Introduced. The context of time frame is important. Check out Vicente with Jose Merce and Moraito, they have a cool duet falseta. But his style of accompanying the cante was quite different at the time that appeared (1998), and also his concepts of recording were hugely advanced over his contemporaries. Vivencias Imaginadas is still the best fidelity of any flamenco guitar recording I have heard. He duets with Paco there, and I would bet you get lost telling who is who at times (negating your “wanna be” comment).

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 22:00:01
 
Piwin

Posts: 3566
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

Maybe trying to emulate your predecessors and failing at it is exactly how you end up developing your own distinctive voice, which Vicente certainly has.

PdL was a major influence, for sure, but so was Manolo Sanlucar. Both of them seem to have thought highly of Vicente, as an artist in his own right.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 22:06:56
 
elias

 

Posts: 40
Joined: Nov. 23 2023
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

I have the complete opposite impression. They're not trying to be Paco at all, and their works are filled with soul. Your comment is exactly what Segovia thought of Paco de Lucia anyway, trying to show off while lacking soul etc

Not sure how any human being with taste can say this is lacking in soul, or even a Paco rehash.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 22:23:09
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Vivencias Imaginadas is still the best fidelity of any flamenco guitar recording I have heard.


I just listened to a couple of tracks on Youtube, via Sony WH3000XM3 headphones plugged into a Mac Mini. I agree. There may be a bit of compression, but very little, if any. There is a some applied reverb, but it is quite minimal, and tastefully applied.

Sounds great!

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 0:16:29
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1907
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

quote:

No problem with being a wannabe Paco; but their music lacks depth. It feels more like they're trying to impress their audience with 'look how good i am", complete lack of soul.


I disagree but agree with some bits. IMO Vicente has found his own way of telling stories but just got tired and is now recycling old ideas and ends up saying nothing new. At least when he has a new album out there's still a gem or two there and his technical ability is still something to be admired.
Antonio on the other hand was superb on his first three albums. Since then I've found he's become extremely commercially oriented and wants to win Latin Grammys and basically is sacrificing his art on the altar of money.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 2:27:16
 
metalhead

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 15 2023
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

Exactly at that. Albeit I said in a more extreme way. Their music feels extremely commercial now, exactly at that. I fail to find the proper words and unfortunately offend people
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 5:52:06
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Filip

heard that song last week , and i was expecting a tradional or more tradional paso doble, and i was very wrong as usual :)

i guess its that kind of song that i have to listen many times , everyime i listen i found something new and i enjoy more
Like it or not , seems genious to do this aproach to a paso doble.
Cant wait for the others , better than this one i hope
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 10:20:33
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

they are monsters in everyway on flamenco or modern flamenco , but you put Ben on your list...... , thats crazy , Vicente and Rey Wannabes , the others arent?


I also enjoy some players of my club , but they arent Messi or Ronaldo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 10:43:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14971
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

Exactly at that. Albeit I said in a more extreme way. Their music feels extremely commercial now, exactly at that. I fail to find the proper words and unfortunately offend people


It is ok to call it like you see it. But with these opinions, beyond just saying “don’t like it”, you end up revealing what you understand (or not) about what is going on. Flamenco is an OLD traditional art form, and you don’t just get to waltz in like Edward Van Halen and do whatever the hell you want, and pretend you are an innovator. In Rock or whatever, you are required to do that…other wise one similar riff, or you start tapping and you are a Van Halen wanna be, one fast scale or arpegio and you are “Yngwie’s clone”. Then let’s say you create something unique…well your next offering better be more new stuff or you are written off as losing the direction or not saying anything new, as if it is a bad thing. Yngwie had 3 albums and then 30 that recreate those over and over. At this point it should be commended that he did not “sell out” or change his formula, it is simply “his style”.

So in flamenco, there are huge constraints on what you can do. Paco carefully showed the way (and his contemporaries), but these guys are a unique case in the history of the genre. Many liked Paco to a certain point then “this is no longer flamenco” somehow. This thing Paco did is NOT a requirement of the genre. Old to modern players, one or two albums show a personal approach to all the palos of the tradition is MORE than enough. You set your thing in stone and it is Ok to forever repeat that. What is left is more of the same, because this is a living tradition of music expression. People complain about Vicente making new albums that are the same…this is freaking NORMAL. You don’t reinvent yourself in a TRADITIONAL art form.

When you hear a “wanna be” in flamenco, much of what you are hearing is not literally that, but rather, an artist expressing what NEEDS to be expressed to stay on track. Like when I criticized some new guys that refuse to rematar their falsetas…yes it was “unique” but now they are off the track with this thing IMO. Or when young artists hear an old guitarist doing the traditional arpegio and “he is a dinosaur”, that is hugely disrespectful and lacks a deeper appreciation. YES things have evolved, but there needs to be focus and discipline. Paco trashed so many new ideas deliberately because he knew intuitively he was going off the rails. Vicente came along and changed things in a major way for tocaors, and this thing needs to be contextualize and respected. Not liking that he rehashed some falsetas or whatever, to me is petty, and misses the bigger picture. He, like Diego del gastor or Melchor de Marchena have their place…and now Dani de moron. I don’t LIKE what he is doing now, but I absolutely RESPECT what he is doing that is different and relevant. I also don’t need to purchase every new Vicente Album, I get it, he was great, and that is his style. Same with Antonio Rey. But sadly for him, he entered the scene at a time music industry has changed drastically. Unlike if he appeared in the 80s or 90s, he can’t make a living from this unless he sells guitars etc. He has no choice but to go commercial routes otherwise get a day job. It sucks for him cuz, IMO, he was carrying the torch for a brief moment.

And Antonio had that bolero that is a Paco/Mclaughlin rip off. Perhaps he should have credited that track, but still, it is NORMAL to do that in this genre. That is how it stays a TRADITIONAL music.
Moraito is a Paco “wannabe” as much as he is carrying his family style (Morao de Jerez). Yes it his own “style” to play it slow and groovy, but it is the same note for note material that Paco created. Ben is of course a “wannabe” who happened to get lucky with a niche that blends two styles where in NEITHER genre (playing 90% covers) he would have been an important artist but it is the simple fact he BLENDS them, he is a force to be reckoned with – simply cuz nobody did it before. Paco Peña? Note for note N. Ricardo and Sabicas, and not as good. But his own way sure. PDL started out as a N. Ricardo clone until he met Sabicas (probably jealous cuz when he plays N. Ricardo he didn’t do it as precisely as this Paco kid LOL), and only THEN becomes his own artist. So sure, it is ok to not like someone, but there is distinction to be made about following in the footsteps of the maestros.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 13:52:31
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14971
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Ricardo



The student takes it further:


Then the “wanna be” greatly improves on it (IMO).



This, to me, is how art evolves and continues on the shoulders of giants.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 14:05:27
 
metalhead

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 15 2023
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Ricardo

this is a very detailed explaination and I appreciate it as always Ricardo. My problem isn't Vicente creating his own sound, he can do it all he wants who am I to stop him? I know very well that when somebody masters something, they become bored and start doing unconventional things; like Picasso did.

Do you think I believe Vicente doesn't know flamenco? Obviously not, he has mastered it ages ago and that allowed him to go his own route

However I was surprised tho that Vicente seemed far off from the 'authentic flamenco sound' (at least to my ears) and despite that; he is liked in every flamenco space. I've likely met more Vicente fans than Paco fans; seriously.

About the commercial part too; I don't blame them. Vicente has created Roma, and albeit a non flamenco piece it is the opposite of what all I've been saying about Vicente. So it is obvious he can create deep moving music too like Paco or Moraito or any of the old guys did. Hence bringing me to say that "playing to impress the audience" because his other stuff doesn't move me. Maybe my ears are not meant for him. and I admit some of the things I said should been worded more properly.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 14:31:22
 
metalhead

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 15 2023
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Ricardo

can u link me a moriato piece or falseta that you think is a 'note by note' clone of paco? I want to hear it
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 15:53:33
 
metalhead

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 15 2023
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Manitas de Lata

What is wrong with saying I like Ben? Ben brought me to flamenco, if not him I wouldn't have know what's flamenco. Eventually I started liking traditonal flamenco more; but whenever somebody asks me about my favorite musicians I always make sure to include Ben there. It's okay to like stuff that most others in the flamenco community don't like(eg Ben) and it's also perfectly okay to dislike what most others in flamenco community like(eg Vicente/Antonio). I don't like to listen to msuic just because somebody else told me to like it, I listen to what I find good :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 16:02:41
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

he composed lot of things that i didnt know , because it doesnt seem to be Vicente style....but its from him , composition and lyrics.

How´s that? a non gipsy writting great lyrics for gipsies lmfao , and guitar composition.

Vicente is a genius poet , a class apart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 16:29:41
 
Mark2

Posts: 1891
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

It's all subjective but for my money they are two of the very best. I've seen both twice and am seeing Antonio again in two weeks. No depth?

Well ok, I'd have to disagree. Both have written great music IMO. Vicente is a great accompanist. Antonio Rey -first time I saw him some of the most experienced locals were there including Jason McGuire and Kenny Parker. They, and others there said it was about the best playing they ever heard. I saw Kenny a few months ago at a concert and he said Antonio was the best he ever saw. He's been in it over fifty years and seen a lot of flamenco.

I agree with Manitas-Vicente is a genius. And Antonio is simply one of the best guitarists on the planet. Go see them play. Might change your mind.

OTOH, when I was walking out of the last VA concert I saw, two guys were talking and said he had great technique but no feeling. I took that to mean they had zero knowledge about flamenco. Maybe I was wrong. Doubt it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

No problem with being a wannabe Paco; but their music lacks depth. It feels more like they're trying to impress their audience with 'look how good i am", complete lack of soul.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 16:57:47
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Mark2

maybe they were talkin about Javier Conde?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 17:11:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14971
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to metalhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

can u link me a moriato piece or falseta that you think is a 'note by note' clone of paco? I want to hear it


http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=301660&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=paquero%2Cmoraito&tmode=&smode=&s=#301795

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 17:18:22
 
Filip

 

Posts: 428
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Filip

I love Vicente's stuff. Most of the albums I listen to are older rather than newer. Things like Mensaje, La tarde es caramelo, Tangos del arco bajo, Silia y el tiempo, and Morente are masterpieces imho. I've been also to a few concerts, I remember one as quite amazing, and also one when he had somewhat bad day. That said, I've been always wondering why he never released any live albums (except Cordoba DVD, but no CD).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 18:48:17
 
Piwin

Posts: 3566
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Filip

quote:

Most of the albums I listen to are older rather than newer


Same. The first 3 or 4 solo albums I know pretty much by heart. For whatever reason I haven't paid all that much attention to his later stuff though.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 19:15:58
 
metalhead

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 15 2023
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Ricardo

I thought you meant falsetas that Moraito played note for note from paco. what's the big deal in borrowing compas phrases? Everybody does it all the time, Paco also borrowed compas from the older guys
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 20:07:58
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Filip

Vicente is a Hit machine for himself and for others

some years ago i listen to a duet nina pastori and Jose El Frances , the song "Fuera de mi" that it was a huge hit when released , guess whos on the guitar lmfao

Everytime that i ear something good , catchy and normally with good taste , the guys is on it.

how the hell can he create something really gitano more trad. or some Gitano pop or some contemp with jazzy and sometimes all mixed up and other **** together? and write lyrics , very nice ones...Wtf?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 21:41:29
 
Mark2

Posts: 1891
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Manitas de Lata

Not buying that either. I like his playing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata

maybe they were talkin about Javier Conde?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 22:26:09
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1907
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: New Vicente Amigo album (in reply to Filip

quote:

That said, I've been always wondering why he never released any live albums (except Cordoba DVD, but no CD).


He routinely has his live material removed from YouTube, only some remain that he's probably proud of. The only thing I can think of is that when he's not happy with his own playing, he has them removed. If it were his management, then all the other stuff would be gone too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 22:46:56
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