Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers (economical, others models)
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
 RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
As i see , more guitar makers (non factory) are doing economical models , no laminated woods.
Starts from 600 can go to 1000/1500 , some with really nice sound and finish.
Huge options and market in Spain , some are making a name , others maybe just want to make more cash because they re knowed (locally)
Very nice moment to grab a nice guitar , the 2hand market is also very appealing.
Please dont make a drama from this , just realise that seems to be a great time to see options.
It is not economically viable, as far as I know and have discussed with people that play their own builds, to sell a hand built guitar for less than $2,500+. The materials and time alone to break even give this figure. Any builder making concert normal guitars at normal concert prices, that is offering a $600-$1500 instrument, is having them made at a factory to specifications (or not even, simply placing a label in an existing model), where such prices are achievable thanks to bulk orders/sales worldwide (30k instruments a year in some cases). This is basic economics, no drama. You might as well drop any prejudice against Valencia factory guitar output….they are masters at the process and most professionals recognize their functional value (for use, not resale to make money from a collector). Cut out the middle man sticking labels inside. Like used car. You need to get somewhere, get a used car in good condition. No shame in it.
Trying to find the unicorn guitar “special deal, boy did I luck out” situation, is delusional.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 11 2024 17:58:14
 |
|
Manitas de Lata
Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
|
|
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
i see your point and also agree.
theres exceptions , like competiton and personal goals , if you re not a well know maker , like only in your area and want to go further for example , make more name , put more guitars circulating and also gain more customers for higher range models.
If you have work for all year or next with reserves you dont need that , in opposite i think its a good strategy to make nice guitar with nicier quallity than factory and personalize to the customer , with decent woods/specs , and of course increase your name in the market and gain more custormers to higher range.
Spain as i see is huge market with huge competition , so customer will win with this, and dont forget that many seells to foregneir markets , so they leave more room in domestic market.
They have the well knowed makers , well knowed factorys , not so well knowed makers (locals) and unknown , spanish and no native, lots of makers.
You have lots of high quality wood furniture makers that are just making guitars as their age increase , also lots of people getting doin guitar making lessons .
Its like other working areas , everyday more options to customers , more makers more options , more price ranges .
The customer wins, in oposite some people that do this for life will suffer and that sucks... i know , i have experienced and saw that many many years ago (and still) , and now almost all of us are in jeopardy as AI is taking over and companies dont give a **** for people and dont realise that everyone is a client , if you cut people those people will not consume...and dont give money to your company , its just stupid .
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 11 2024 19:16:31
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
|
|
|
quote:
i think its a good strategy to make nice guitar with nicier quallity than factory and personalize to the customer
As I said, it is not really possible economically (losing half the cost to make). The factory concept has a negative connotation, but they can, even quick and easier and better results sometimes, do customizations upon request. They are so skilled at it that the negativity is coming from the fact that very high priced guitars with hands on detail can barely compete. In many cases, the cheap factory plastic coated guitar can out perform even legendary classic collectors items. The push against them in favor of the “charm” of a hand built “loved” instrument is not founded on any practical element. The only thing is, possibly the neck angle Goldilocks set up might be hit or miss in the factory, where as a single builder might get better consistency. But make no mistake, there are flaw possible in the most expensive hand built instruments all the time. The factory conveyor belt system eliminates many of the typical flaws, but you end up with an “impersonal” instrument, and to many people that matters.
It is this reason that your question to builders to drop their prices due to flaws (knowing full well that it is impossible to guarantee a flawless hand built anything), was taken as a big insult. The factory concept begans with the idea of a workshop of apprentices. That santos book we discuss in the other thread, well, that is a sort of “tiny” factory where it just so happens the kids working for M. Ramirez shop learned great skills. Those famous guitars by Santos don’t even have his name on there (a big issue to even put his name in one as the repair guy). The romantic notion that buyers like Segovia thought Manuel Ramirez spent hours with his barre hands to make that guitar, is false. It was some other guy, and even in that book is one M. Ramirez where THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHO BUILT THE THING. It is assumed it was Santos or Esteso, but it could have been the other guys. That is the issue with “factory” vs “luthier” made instruments. yet those right here are the MOST valuable guitars history has produced.
So if it comes down to money, no you are simply not going to get a cheap guitar that is better than the factory built ones from Valencia.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 12 2024 15:30:18
|
|
Manitas de Lata
Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
|
|
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
theres one luthier (non factory) Pepe Alcalareños that makes 600 , plus materials , so i suposed that the final price is around 1000 or so. So its like entry range Tato Rodriguez . They sound nice than mine , i think they re great value for money and no laminated , no top tuners just mids, peg if you want.
Well for sure theres a lot more small individual guitarreros doin this.
valerio for that price (just 600-700 final no plus) its laminated.
Daniel avalle has some economical for 700+- and no laminated , altough the studios are his factory.
Many others are starting doing that , they choose decent woods (non laminated) they give the work plan , and supose supervise the work (i dont quite believe this issue) , some outsource like individual small luthiers/guitar makers , others are more knowed and have the workers for that.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 13 2024 15:48:56
|
|
Manitas de Lata
Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
|
|
RE: Spanish (or based) Guitar Makers... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
well if i decide to go spanish luthier way i will phone him (and others) and will know ;)
For Quality price and a near travel , Tato Rodriguez, i can even go there to enjoy Huelva visit the place and order if i want to .
Other option i can order a luthier model from a factory in my country and still under 1k with very decent dry wood and i can personalize the guitar , thin neck , color , low action , torres 7 model etc
I allready talked to them and i can give them the plan and they execute.
I have almost total freedom on the order , since its their Luthier model.
Im thinking to give them some guidelines , therefore i have to search for them, like for example a thinier top to have more ressonance , the measure of a little more thinier neck that my current guitar etc
sugestions are welcome on this..
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 13 2024 19:15:24
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
9.301758E-02 secs.
|
Printable Version
