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koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

rasgueado question 

I have a question about rasgueado.
I have a drawing attached to it to explain myself.

When you guys do ami rasgueado, do you block your fingers before doing it ?
Or are your fingers moving free?

And when you block them, is it like in drawing one ( by the inside of your hand )
or like in drawing two ( by the tip of the thumb) ?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2006 7:18:01
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

I gues u can use whatever effect u need, if u need it strong and heavy and each stroke really clear u could use 2.

If u need more speed or whatever u do it the other way.

theres always more ways to skin a cat.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2006 7:32:16
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

Well my drawing is maybe not that good.

Drawing 1: I grab my fingers with the flesh of the innerside of my hand.
Drawing 2: I grab my fingers with the tip of my thumb.

So both ways are supposed to block the fingers.

I find the first way difficult to do.
The second way is easier but more difficult to combine with other techniques.

So which one is more common ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2006 10:38:40
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

Koella,
I think the blocking of the fingers by the tip of the thumb is good for a particular "effect", but is just too strong to be used in every ami rasgueado IMO.
I normally play "unblocked" ami, but when I want a stronger sound, I pull the tips of the 3 fingers under the base of the thumb, which traps them slightly.
If you turn your hand palm upwards, the thumb looks like a chicken drumstick, right?...(Well it should if you've been practising enough pulgar work.. ) .
Well I place the tips of the fingers against the fleshy part of the drumstick.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2006 11:24:20
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

I'm just the opposite, when I use the technique in figure 1, my ami ras is way stronger than using my thumb (figure 2). I even had to stop using the technique in figure 1 after I developed pain in the big knuckle of my ring finger. When I use my thumb (figure 2), I can better control the amount of tension I build in the individual fingers. I use it probably about 75% of the time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2006 13:20:44
 
leo

 

Posts: 61
Joined: Aug. 2 2005
 

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

Thats a very good question that i always ask guitairists. in spain i asked alot about it
there are many ways to do different rasguados and many ways to do each one.
you can see that nino ricardo for example on the video that was posted here before
he did it without blocking his fingers. paco serrano does amii on his alegrias track when he blocks the a m i fingers (not with the thumb) and m i on the tangos with blocking them with the thumb tomatito sometimes blocks them sometimes not
It's just depends on the sound effect you want.
you can block with the tip of the thumb or with the inside each one gives you a different effect. you can block just the i with the thumb and the other fingers can be free like i saw Tomatito does.

cheers
leo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2006 13:26:11
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

Thank you guys. You're all very helpfull.
Guess I gotta practise them all and find out what works best for me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2006 20:19:20
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
I normally play "unblocked" ami, but when I want a stronger sound, I pull the tips of the 3 fingers under the base of the thumb, which traps them slightly.


Quick question Ron - what do you do if you want 8 strikes in quick sucession, with clean separation ie amiiamii? Can you return your fingers fast enough when you trap on the the thumb base like that?

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2006 11:51:21
 
rick

 

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
 

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

my teacher has explained to me there is room for both, depending on the tonal effect you want to convey. he has taught me explosive technique, (holding the fingers inthe palm with the thumb overlapping sort of as depicted in the previous posts, sounds like a drum, tambor effect) for an dynamic effect on the e and a string. But if you listen to Nino, he uses more of the light flowery ras mainly on the e, b string that alsomst sound like tremelo. Sabicas is all over the map, using light sequences e, b for some passage, mid range d, g b for some and high to low in others, (malaguena) Im sure there are people here with more knowledge than i, but I think we are doing the same thing again, trying to say there is one right way and that defeats the idea of flamenco, its about texture in the music and what are you trying to say, musically. Sabicas also used amii, 2nd i being up, and then amii, 2nd i being down for his crescendo passages via ras in several songs.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2006 12:56:17
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to Jon Boyes

I can't on fast stuff Jon..although I can generally get the "i" back to give a bit of extra punch.
Mind you the word "trap" seems a bit strong...the fingers just touch the thumb base, just enough to stop the fingers moving until a bit of force is built up to overcome the friction, if you see what I mean.
I generally don't strive for "even" rasgueados...I suppose I just think about completing the whole thing within the required beats.
A good way of getting an "even" and marked sound to rasgueado is to start with the "i" finger:-
i,a,m,i,i,i,a,m,i,i,i,a,m,i...etc

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2006 13:17:44
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to rick

quote:

ORIGINAL: rick
but I think we are doing the same thing again, trying to say there is one right way and that defeats the idea of flamenco,


Thats not what I am reading above

There is one other aspect there hasn't been mentioned above, the old chestnut of old vs new. Take a listen to any old school players - Sabicas, Juan Martin, Paco Pena etc and you will hear marked difference between the sound of their rasgueados and those of the contemporary players. The modern players go for much more precise, separated, cleanly articulated strikes, whereas the older guys get more of a rolling sound. Also, you rarely hear anyone divide a beat by five these days (eg EAMII) whereas that used to be more fashionable.

The methods reflect this (eg Juan Martin vs Graf Martinez).

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2006 15:47:24
 
edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005
 

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

In my oppinion, practicing in the tucked postion with thumb gets your ras steady and even so when you play with your fingers tucked to the palm its easier and sounds good. I've been told when you practice this way, later on you don't have to tuck yuour fingers at all. laters

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May we find God through Flamenco instead of Angels and Demons

www.gabrieledgar.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2006 15:52:23
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

ups
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2006 15:57:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14912
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

I read all replies and yeah there are many ways to do the same thing, and yeah the sound can be different depending on how you do it. I personally do something different than described thus far. I don't do either picture 1 nor picture 2 as described and shown. I never tuck the finger into the palm where the nails touch the skin of my palm. If I want the brushing sound the fingers just come out on there own and scratch strings.

If I want loud separated machine gun strokes, I block the index finger only with the thumb, with the thumb either bent or straight depending on the bass note of the chord I want. Straight will skip the adjacent string, bent will shoot the finger directly into it. The other fingers (ch,a,m or just a, m, depending) are "blocked" by each other. I mean each finger to play is ever so slightly tucked behind the next one, so each finger shoots off the side. It is easy to gather the fingers back into that position to repeat continuously. The more snap I want, the more tightly tucked the fingers are. If you watch Tomatito's vid for example you dont' see him blocking all 3 fingers with the thumb, just the index. That is where I got the idea, though I have never seen anyone teach it.

Ricardo

EDIT: In regards to the old school vs. modern approach to the sound of rasgueados, brushing roll vs marked even machine gun attacks, I dont consider the latter to be specifically "modern". Listen to Paco on "Fantasia Flamenca", 1969. I consider that music traditional, but he does both kinds of rasgueado on Celosa. First time it is the "brushing" sound of 5 strokes, then the next compas, 8 even marked attacks that snap the bass strings. Very deliberate and "traditional" IMO. Notice how he makes use of the different style in that single piece. The fingering they have in the transcription book, which I believe to be accurate considering old Video I have seen, is c,a,m,i, i(up on second beat) c a m, ending with i down on the 3rd beat. It is clear and separate strokes, 4 notes per beat.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2006 22:12:06
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: rasgueado question (in reply to koella

Wow Ricardo. Blocked by each other. Indeed that's what happening.
Thank you so very much for sharing this !
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2006 22:32:02
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