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Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2023 21:07:19

estebanana

Posts: 9357
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

I have these kind of bees behind my shop.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 0:27:55

devilhand

Posts: 1605
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata

please put your B stock listing (that are playable, minor defect), maybe without photo, but with description

sometimes things go not so good and maybe theres people interested that cant aford the "perfect" craft

I would say it's the other way round. Luthiers can't afford it. It's not a mass production in Valencia.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 1:09:05

Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to devilhand)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 10:02:56

devilhand

Posts: 1605
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

quote:

what do you mean they cant afford ? (afford what?)

Can't afford the luxury of building b stock guitars. As I mentioned, we're not talking about factory made guitars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 13:19:43

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to estebanana)

You probably already know about these but I just stumbled across this and found it quite interesting. They have a ton of beekeeping videos on YouTube and it seems also quite a following.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 13:43:43

Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to devilhand)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 14:06:54

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

Most serious makers do not want to put an instrument that doesn’t meet their standards into circulation and won’t work with you on this. They have nothing to gain from it. There are makers who do make “economical” models, but this shouldn’t be taken to be a reflection on quality.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 14:42:10

Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to RobF)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 14:56:07

estebanana

Posts: 9357
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to RobF)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

Most serious makers do not want to put an instrument that doesn’t meet their standards into circulation and won’t work with you on this. They have nothing to gain from it. There are makers who do make “economical” models, but this shouldn’t be taken to be a reflection on quality.

This.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 14:57:30

Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to estebanana)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 15:21:09

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to RobF)

quote:

Most serious makers do not want to put an instrument that doesn’t meet their standards into circulation and won’t work with you on this. They have nothing to gain from it. There are makers who do make “economical” models, but this shouldn’t be taken to be a reflection on quality.

Permit me to allow my imagination to run away with me. Let's envision luthiers opening "outlet" stores in "outlet" malls where they sell their "B stock," less-than-stellar guitars at a discount. Or maybe contracting with "thrift" stores to handle them. They could get "Esteban" (That cheesy guy who used to advertise cheap guitars on TV.) to flog their guitars.

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 18:02:39

estebanana

Posts: 9357
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata

quote:

So , they destroy the creations? they keep in storage?
its a pitty because sometimes are minor issues that most cant see or notice , and you could have still a better quality guitar rather a cheap one (massive market factory)

So , they destroy the creations? they keep in storage?
its a pitty because sometimes are minor issues that most cant see or notice , and you could have still a better quality guitar rather a cheap one (massive market factory)

It’s a tough business and if you are an independent guitar maker one mistake in public can cause difficulties or damage to your reputation. The internet is brutal and filled with morons who don’t know very much about guitars and they misinform each other about what’s good and not good.

But here’s your answer, if a guitar maker has a problem with a guitar that doesn’t please the person who commissioned it, they usually buy it back and hold it. It probably gets sold privately to a trusted friend or customer who will not drag it in public. My advice is don’t call out for guitar makers to put guitars on display that aren’t perfect, but rather ask to contact you directly if they have something to show you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 22:40:14

estebanana

Posts: 9357
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to RobF)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

You probably already know about these but I just stumbled across this and found it quite interesting. They have a ton of beekeeping videos on YouTube and it seems also quite a following.

Yes I know about these hive types, my friend Masuzaki-san has two of three of them and sells honey. If I get serious about selling honey I’d consider this hive. I use the typical Japanese style stacking box which is weird looking if you’re used to seeing western style Langsdorf hives from Europe. The advantage is that Japanese bees don’t get veroa mites because the hive structure or colony way of building the combs isn’t disturbed by racks and separators in the hive. The western hives are one of the reasons bees get sick from parasites.

I really don’t like harvesting the honey, it’s a PITA and honestly I can take it or leave it. I’d rather have lemon curd on my scones. My primary objective is to create urban bee habitats and just because they are fun to be around, they are like companions to me. I collect the honey because the extended family enjoys getting jars of it. I harvest 2 to 3 liters per year and give more than half of it away.

I’ve been looking at bee hives from many countries and might try an African design next year. And I’ve been keen on a new trend in bee appreciation where you create hive boxes and rope them into trees high off the ground to make habitats for wild bees.

All my colonies are wild, I use the dark arts and an orchid that attracts bees to lure them to my hive boxes. The thrill of hearing a colony buzzing and showing up in a big cloud of bees is exhilarating. Then they land nearby and march in. The process is interesting because a few dozen scout bees will come check out your box and then leave. You can tell when the scouts are in approval of the box and they leave. Sometime later that morning the colony will come and it’s absolutely crazy. They are really loud and the vibrations of their wings move the air. The thrill is similar to finding a good flamenco guitar and playing chords with rasgueado.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2023 23:00:46

Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to estebanana)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 10:16:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata

i think they will give a nice discount or do another to cliente and assume the cost of the previous, that make sense.
But its impossible to garantee that one day that guitar dont go to public market
I allready change the first topics message

I had a chance to buy one some years ago , but had cold feet , i regret a lot....it was a 50% discount or more.
Great guitar , thin neck like modern C/D with carbon , top with Master canadian spruce and old indian rosewood back/sides. Piano flamenco sound and great Roar

Not sure why this thing, which is directed to builders, is rubbing me the wrong way. You have this so wrong amigo. First of all, there does not exist a perfect Goldilocks guitar on this earth. EVERY guitar has flaws that goes out the door EVERY SINGLE ONE!! The idea to base a price tag on each guitar is preposterous!!

I am going to put this into perspective for you. I will make a big assumption that you actually play guitar and have played gigs for money in public. When you SCREW UP, which we all inevitably do on stage or where ever, do you then DISCOUNT your performance fee for your lack luster performance appropriately? I mean, sit back amigo and THINK about it for a second please.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 12:15:56

Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Ricardo)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 13:17:15

devilhand

Posts: 1605
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

quote:

Great guitar , thin neck like modern C/D with carbon , top with Master canadian spruce and old indian rosewood back/sides. Piano flamenco sound and great Roar

Guitar has piano flamenco sound? How is it possible? I wonder how that guitar sounds. Any sound example?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 14:14:39

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

I've made 2 guitars. one is mine.
The other has a defect and I'll sell it to you.
£3000 ...unless you wish to do some kind of scientific calculation on what value the mistake might be worth?

but how would you measure such a thing?

B stock?
oh this is like those supermarkets that sell mishapen fruits at a discount. A straight banana or a potato that looks like it has a penis

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 14:38:36

devilhand

Posts: 1605
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Stu)

quote:

or a potato that looks like it has a penis

Reminds me of a sweet ginger girl who showed me her black potatoes after we had an interesting discussion.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 15:10:21

Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Stu)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 15:25:13

Morante

Posts: 2182
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

quote:

if i suck playing i cannot charge , i have to pay for people to listen to me , as the level increases you also increase what you charge.

What is your level??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 15:26:21

orsonw

Posts: 1936
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

Hi Manitas
I don't think you realise how deeply insulting your question is.

A new inexperienced luthier might make mistakes, but good luthiers don't just randomly build guitars with uncontrolled mistakes. They are experienced with working with wood and other unknown variables as they arise during the process. Have a look at some building threads to see how artfully and careful they build.

If you want a discount luthier made guitar try to find a second hand one with lots of damage and bad repairs. Or Stephen Eden here makes a lower priced guitar model with minimal decoration which he can build quickly. https://edenguitars.co.uk/Solea.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 15:26:37

Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to devilhand)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 15:29:31

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Stu)

quote:

B stock?
oh this is like those supermarkets that sell mishapen fruits at a discount. A straight banana or a potato that looks like it has a penis

I once stuck a banana on a guitar because I thought it would make a comfortable armrest, but it came loose at one end and now the guitar looks like it has a boner. I would consider discounting it from my normal inflated price but I’m not sure by how much and also I’d have to get it back from my girlfriend. This might be easier said than done as she says “it’s cute” and she’s become “rather attached to it”. But I can ask her again.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 15:34:37

Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to orsonw)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 15:37:37

orsonw

Posts: 1936
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)

Hi Manitas

What was the 'flaw' with the guitar you previously turned down for a 50% discount?
When you say you're looking for a discount guitar, what kind of flaws are you imagining?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 15:40:37

Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to orsonw)

im not saying that was this case ... (you know what i mean) , but imagine the top was a little more thin that was expected , and when you assemble the wood , it shows some "waves" like 3 ou 4 (even two..) on the area of the "taipiece" (didnt have a tail piece , its just to show you the area ) to the bridge.

I think tomatito play with one for some years

Others flaws? it depends the honesty of the builder , if he cover up and tells you or not
maybe some intonation

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 15:53:48

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to orsonw)

I bought a guitar from a respected maker that he listed on ebay. He stated that it had a small imperfection on the rosette, but other than that it was as good as any of his guitars. I bought it, thinking that if I didn't like it, I could sell it easily for the price I paid.

I didn't see anything wrong with the rosette, but the maker didn't mention he had marked the label with a "2nd"

I objected and wanted to return the guitar. I had purchased a Les Paul custom when I was a kid, and didn't notice the "2nd" stamped on the back of the headstock. I felt deceived and sold that guitar years later for the same 700.00 I paid. It would have worth double without that mark. Today, who knows-maybe 5k.

The maker declined to take the guitar back, and said by me switching the strings around for left handed playing I had altered the guitar. I considered that complete BS.

Rather than get into a protracted dispute I decided to keep the guitar. A few years later I decide to sell it, and low and behold, two people backed out only because of the marking on the label.

You get what you pay for. It's a good guitar, but it's a 2nd. Why? Cause the builder said so.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2023 17:01:52