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estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

Guitar makers, shop commission fee? 

Have you ever seen a shop consignment fee at 40%?

I’m usually seeing 20% to 30% with an average of 25%. Some shops 18%. Does 40% feel a bit steep?

Answer here or by PM if it’s a sensitive question.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2023 5:34:14
 
RobF

Posts: 1602
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to estebanana

Seems high to me, but I guess it depends on what they are committed to doing to earn their cut. Like, if it’s a shop with an international web presence that will properly promote you with professional level photos and videos and such, like the outfit in Barcelona does, then for sure I could see justifying it, as the benefits to you will extend past the point of sale.

A good shop local to me which maintains an active web presence, takes pro level photos (but no videos), has a clean high-end showroom with sound booths, and handles all post sale paperwork and shipping, etc., last time I checked was charging 25%. That was a couple of years ago, but it still seems reasonable.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2023 6:08:38
 
estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to estebanana

I’m pretty much thinking for allowing them to take 40% from a guitar I’ve worked on for several weeks I’d have to get ten or twenty blowjobs from a Russian supermodel in the deal.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2023 6:31:55
 
RobF

Posts: 1602
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to estebanana

Just one more way consignment can suck.

I’ve had bad experiences with consignment, including the straight up theft of a guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2023 6:37:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

Just one more way consignment can suck.

I’ve had bad experiences with consignment, including the straight up theft of a guitar.



That’s terrible, you should be able to trust a dealer.


I have a friend who is a painter that shows with a few art dealers. He gets between $ 3000 and $20,000 for his paintings depending on how large they are- 5” x 5” painting is about 3 grand up to 5 foot wide pictures for upwards of 12,000 - art galleries take 40 to 60% depending, but a gallery has more staff and usually premium downtown leases. My buddy paints a 5 x 5 inch picture in less than 90 minutes, but it took him 20 years of painting to get good enough to be in the big league. A large painting takes a few days to a week and a half. Maybe 20 to 30 hours. He nets $3000 to $6000 for a 15 to 30 hours of work.
The gallery takes 40% which is fair because they have high overhead and it’s much more work to produce a show of art it is to show guitars to walk ins. There’s a lot to an art gallery you don’t see up front from exhibition techs to insurance, registration and creating catalogs. The gallery does all that for the artist.

He once told me before I had a lot of experience with either art galleries or guitar dealers: “ the dealer is your friend, and also not your friend.. “

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2023 8:38:02
 
bftobin

 

Posts: 12
Joined: Oct. 22 2021
 

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to estebanana

If you don't know the people well, there can be lots of headaches. For me, one of the worst was the store allowing people to play the instrument without supervision. All it takes is one 14 year old kid with a big belt buckle who wants the whole store to hear him play Stairway To Heaven or a Deep Purple song. Most of the stores I've come across refuse to take responsibility for damages.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2023 15:26:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14640
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Have you ever seen a shop consignment fee at 40%?

I’m usually seeing 20% to 30% with an average of 25%. Some shops 18%. Does 40% feel a bit steep?

Answer here or by PM if it’s a sensitive question.


In my mind, none of that matters if the guitar actually sells. What you need to do is charge the full price (add to it if must be) such that the extra 40% or whatever, equals exactly what you WANT to sell the guitar for out of your shop. If they never sell the thing, that is too bad but at least you don’t feel cheated. I do this on gigs all the time. If they want to pay by PayPal, or agent wants his cut, etc, then I just up my price so I still get the same as if they handed me the cash of my normal rate. It is the CUSTOMER that needs to pay for these conveniences IMO, and otherwise shame on them for not coming to me directly with cash.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2023 16:47:35
 
estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Have you ever seen a shop consignment fee at 40%?

I’m usually seeing 20% to 30% with an average of 25%. Some shops 18%. Does 40% feel a bit steep?

Answer here or by PM if it’s a sensitive question.


In my mind, none of that matters if the guitar actually sells. What you need to do is charge the full price (add to it if must be) such that the extra 40% or whatever, equals exactly what you WANT to sell the guitar for out of your shop. If they never sell the thing, that is too bad but at least you don’t feel cheated. I do this on gigs all the time. If they want to pay by PayPal, or agent wants his cut, etc, then I just up my price so I still get the same as if they handed me the cash of my normal rate. It is the CUSTOMER that needs to pay for these conveniences IMO, and otherwise shame on them for not coming to me directly with cash.



Ricardo,

I understand setting the price at the point you net the amount you want to make, but the problems there are that

A. Your prices become erratic from dealer to dealer vs. a direct sale by private commission. You want all the prices to be in a similar range. B. Adding the extra percentage to your fee might drive your price into a higher range that will discourage some buyers. I want to of course raise the prices, but gradually over time at a steady pace.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2023 18:18:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14640
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Your prices become erratic from dealer to dealer


I understand your concern, however, that is just the way it is anyway. I had a student who reached out saying he HAD to have a Reyes, no matter the price. If I could get it under 15k I could KEEP the difference as a finder fee. Guitar salon had the one I wanted, it was 28K! Dan Zeff had one 15k that was even better. I made zero but my student was very happy. It collects dust in his closet.

I am the worst guitar sales person. I can’t tell you how many times I was approached to “sell guitars to my students”, where I would know the price of the acquisition then I would be able to keep whatever I can “rip off” from students and friends. I simply can’t do it, I can’t sell a guitar for more than I know it cost. Prices are erratic in this market. The two guitars that I EVER sold, are now sitting in my studio as we speak. I am the WORST sales guy.

quote:

your fee might drive your price into a higher range that will discourage some buyers. I want to of course raise the prices, but gradually over time at a steady pace.


Of course it discourages buyers. However, that is simply how you break through the glass ceiling. Like Blackshear. You can’t have a Reyes but you can have my copy at 10k. Want one? Get in line. This mean that your instruments probably won’t get played much, just sit in the rich guy’s closet, but honestly, that is ok. I challenge you to make an “elite” model or whatever, charge 10K through some fancy dealer where that is what the point is….make money of rich dudes that don’t care to bargain for anything, they want what they want NOW….and watch what happens. You can thank me later.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2023 14:57:33
 
RobF

Posts: 1602
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I challenge you to make an “elite” model or whatever, charge 10K through some fancy dealer where that is what the point is….make money of rich dudes that don’t care to bargain for anything, they want what they want NOW….and watch what happens. You can thank me later


The thing is, it’s a much more crowded playing field than it was when Tom first established himself. That, and the internet has also informed the “rich dudes”. I’m sure there’s guys out there that buy just so they can “flex”, but reading the kind of buying advice blah blah that goes on in this Foro shows a lot of purchasers of flamenco guitars can’t get past the need for a “made in Spain” label. That’s probably more of a glass ceiling for a non-Spanish maker than anything else, actually.

If someone wants to go the route of pandering to the wealthy, they’d be better served to make classical guitars or boutique style steel strings, where they’re not struggling as much against the regional bias, if at all. Most of the makers on here that make flamenco guitars probably do so more out of love than anything else, as the big money lies elsewhere.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2023 17:27:03
 
Firefrets

 

Posts: 107
Joined: Mar. 22 2023
 

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to estebanana

I can offer you 30% and an occasional knuckle shuffle.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2023 9:28:50
 
estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Your prices become erratic from dealer to dealer


I understand your concern, however, that is just the way it is anyway. I had a student who reached out saying he HAD to have a Reyes, no matter the price. If I could get it under 15k I could KEEP the difference as a finder fee. Guitar salon had the one I wanted, it was 28K! Dan Zeff had one 15k that was even better. I made zero but my student was very happy. It collects dust in his closet.

I am the worst guitar sales person. I can’t tell you how many times I was approached to “sell guitars to my students”, where I would know the price of the acquisition then I would be able to keep whatever I can “rip off” from students and friends. I simply can’t do it, I can’t sell a guitar for more than I know it cost. Prices are erratic in this market. The two guitars that I EVER sold, are now sitting in my studio as we speak. I am the WORST sales guy.

quote:

your fee might drive your price into a higher range that will discourage some buyers. I want to of course raise the prices, but gradually over time at a steady pace.


Of course it discourages buyers. However, that is simply how you break through the glass ceiling. Like Blackshear. You can’t have a Reyes but you can have my copy at 10k. Want one? Get in line. This mean that your instruments probably won’t get played much, just sit in the rich guy’s closet, but honestly, that is ok. I challenge you to make an “elite” model or whatever, charge 10K through some fancy dealer where that is what the point is….make money of rich dudes that don’t care to bargain for anything, they want what they want NOW….and watch what happens. You can thank me later.



I’m working a different market mentality, and I’m not a copy cat shill like Blackshear. I don’t need to signify off of a famous makers name to raise my fee. If I make a guitar that’s a bench copy or a study of a certain era or style it’s for my own edification and humility as a student of Spanish guitar making, not as a marketing strategy to provide substitutes for dead men’s labor. Building for a customer who wants a bench copy of a guitar with the spirit of a past master is a different kind of labor of homage. I think playing the ‘copy the style of whomsoever’ to create a secondary market for cheaper models of a famous maker is absolute chickenshiet and the realm of those who are meshugehneh. Making making models called after a dead master builder is a tricky thing because copying is how you learn, but if you’re still playing the game of marketing yourself as the purveyor of the dead masters when you’re 75, you didn’t understand the assignment. At a certain point you need to individuate from the past and create your own unique models, just like a guitarist has to individuate in their own toque, but still recognize what masters they base it on.

In Japan and the US - Europe you can be your own name, but materials dictate price. Cocobolo and Brazilian fetch the highest prices. Unfortunately I’m allergic to Coco and don’t like how it looks, and I’m not fond of Brazilian either for several reasons. My path is to work under my own name without signifying off of dead masters, and to work with Cypress and other native woods I’ve collected and still bust down the ceiling on these terms. And I’m going to do it, am doing it now. I choose that road because it’s not paved with film flummery of guys who want a Reyes but can’t afford one. If you sell your elite model under your own agency of design and sound, the folks buying your work are more likely to play the instrument and not think of it as a object to stick in a closet.

I’m not in it to be a person who’s known for playing games with providing ‘ faux Reyes’ or Santos, but in it to absorb what they did and synthesize it into my own work.

My version of the letra:
esta noche quien manda, mañana mando yo!

😂

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2023 2:29:06
 
estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Guitar makers, shop commission fee? (in reply to estebanana

Romanillos studied other guitar makers instruments, but he synthesized the information into his own guitar with his name. No excuses, no following after, but investigating and doing his thing. That’s how I think. If you’re always trying to second guess the marketing of dead men’s names, you’ll never be yourself.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2023 5:45:50
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