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How do u go about counting this kind of rhythm?   You are logged in as Guest
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metalhead

 

Posts: 132
Joined: Apr. 15 2023
 

How do u go about counting this kind... 

There's this falseta that has 12 notes that are essentially 16th notes. Thus 3 groups of 16th notes. However, the accents are such that instead of falling on the downbeat of the next beat, it falls after every 3 notes. Thus making it sound like there's 4 triplets being played while actually just being 16th notes underneath.

So while counting how we'd normally count a 16th note as 1 e & a, it gets incredibly confusing; because since the accent is every 4th beat we instead try to count is 1 & a 2 & a and so on.

How to properly count it instead of being confused?

https://youtu.be/bHSUOvLZjlo?t=16

timestamp - 0:16 - 0:22 (barring the picado)

tabs-

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2023 19:59:33
 
silddx

Posts: 573
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

Can you post the notation?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2023 20:06:39
 
metalhead

 

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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 16 2023 20:18:29
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2023 20:18:21
 
metalhead

 

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RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to silddx

If you've a guitar lying around right now, you'll realize how awkward this is to count!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2023 20:20:08
 
silddx

Posts: 573
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

I'm no expert but I'd go 123456 223456
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2023 22:27:00
 
machopicasso

 

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RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

Whose falseta is it?

Do you have a video or audio clip that you could post?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 5:11:09
 
silddx

Posts: 573
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to machopicasso

Be useful to see the whole bar too. And what palo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 8:07:51
 
AndresK

Posts: 321
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
From: Patras, Greece

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

It would be good to hear what actually the musician playing this, means. There are a lot of weird ways to write down some very simple things in music.

Nevertheless, accenting 16th notes in group of 3s is very common. One way would be to tap your foot on the quarter notes slowly and sing or clap the 16th notes rhythmically accenting them every 3 notes. Drummers do that much too often. It is very easy if you apply it on just 4 quarters because you get 5 accents on 3s and one more 16th note before landing again on the next beat. It gets way trickier to do this in more meters with more practise at hand. If you you do it slowly it is not so difficult, but do it first without the guitar to understand it.

If it is a flamenco piece I would amazed if it had groups of 3s, and it would make actually more sense if those were just triples and someone forgot to write the little 3 number above them
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 8:19:10
 
AndresK

Posts: 321
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
From: Patras, Greece

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

Here is a small sample of what I mean. First is foot with counting 4 to understand where you are. Then clapping 16ths and then accenting the 16th notes in groups of 3.

https://on.soundcloud.com/qkd6v
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 8:36:35
 
metalhead

 

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RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to machopicasso

https://youtu.be/bHSUOvLZjlo?t=16

timestamp- 0:16 - 0:22 (barring the picado)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 8:52:04
 
metalhead

 

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RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to AndresK

https://youtu.be/bHSUOvLZjlo?t=16

timestamp- 0:16-0:22 (barring the picado)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 8:53:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14912
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

This is Soleá. So we could start there. Whoever transcribed or notated it using guitar pro doesn’t realize that when you select meter (12/4) it gives you option for beaming 8th notes, which would therefore correctly break apart 16th note groupings in 4’s. There is a default setting that has 8ths beamed together and the person transcribing incorrectly left it like that, or possibly, beamed 6th 8th together.

Your question about “how to count” possibly is asking how to best count subdivisions? I recommend the marching drum method “1 e & ah, 2 e & ah, 3 etc”. Despite that simple count, the passage in question is syncopated in groups of 3 against those 4s.

Not to mention my dude, Kai explains how to freakin count it at 1:20 in the same video you are linking.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 15:16:09
 
JasonM

Posts: 2068
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

Fun falseta.

Heres how I would practice it:

1 e & a 2 (repeat with metronome/foot tap landing on the beat a bunch of times)

2 e & a 3 (shifting to the next group. Repeat)

.. and so on, ending o the E chord just like he does in the vid. Then start stringing the chunks together.

The idea is to train your brain to not think of the bass notes as the downbeat.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 15:16:18
 
metalhead

 

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Joined: Apr. 15 2023
 

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to Ricardo

kai does explain it how to count, i can count it too. Problem arises when counting with the metronome, because of the 3 feel you subconsciously try counting it as 1 & a 2 & a with the metronome
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 15:32:59
 
devilhand

 

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RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

Interview starts at 2:45. I can't say whether the transcription in this video is correct or not because I haven't checked them yet.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 19:16:28
 
JohnWalshGuitar

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Joined: Aug. 10 2009
 

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

It is useful for this reason to practice typical arpeggio patterns and groupings in different subdivision. PAMI in sextuplets or quintuplets for example. This way one is guided by the feel of the subdivisions and buy driven to feel things a certain way just because of where the thumb is played in a pattern.
quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

kai does explain it how to count, i can count it too. Problem arises when counting with the metronome, because of the 3 feel you subconsciously try counting it as 1 & a 2 & a with the metronome


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 20:09:37
 
Mark2

Posts: 1888
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

These type of rhythmic tricks are common in modern playing. You just have to go slow until it's ingrained. Funny that devilhand linked to an interview with Paco Serrano cause his music is full of this type of thing. Stuff that sounds rather simple but in fact is super tricky. His intro to this fandango is a good example:

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2023 20:14:19
 
JasonM

Posts: 2068
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to Mark2

His Fandango makes me think of this intro

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2023 14:44:24
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

quote:

There's this falseta that has 12 notes that are essentially 16th notes. Thus 3 groups of 16th notes. However, the accents are such that instead of falling on the downbeat of the next beat, it falls after every 3 notes. Thus making it sound like there's 4 triplets being played while actually just being 16th notes underneath.

So while counting how we'd normally count a 16th note as 1 e & a, it gets incredibly confusing; because since the accent is every 4th beat we instead try to count is 1 & a 2 & a and so on.

How to properly count it instead of being confused?


Tempted to just say "don't count it, feel it "

But did you see this thread on Siguiriyas? http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=345450&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Quote from that thread from Ricardo on counting "Remember the math is just a tool for internalizing/communicating the phrasing where eventually, you don’t count anything you just understand what is happening."

So what is happening? you are playing 4 over 3. If you can use a metronome and foot tap as a beat and clap 2 over 3 and 3 over 2 already, then this 4 over 3 thing shouldn't be a problem....

as Mark2 says, this is common in modern playing (especially in Bulerias), but it's not just a "modern" thing, it's been around for decades, as here (recorded 1962!), first falseta at 0:16



Or here (recorded 1992), first falseta here at 0:13




Or for something in Soleá we can go back to Niño Ricardo (courtesy of Ricardo):



Don't know when Niño Ricardo recorded that, 1940's? 1950's? maybe 1960's?

slow version:



maybe get more of the basics down before taking on Cañizares...?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2023 17:49:16
 
Mark2

Posts: 1888
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to JasonM

Great -love this one!
quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

His Fandango makes me think of this intro


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2023 18:55:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14912
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalhead

kai does explain it how to count, i can count it too. Problem arises when counting with the metronome, because of the 3 feel you subconsciously try counting it as 1 & a 2 & a with the metronome


You asked about counting, now admit you CAN count it, but it is DIFFICULT to count/play along to a click?

Meaning you have basic rudiments issue to deal with. Learn how to do syncopated rhythms with a metronome, especially basic arpegio patterns. These are quite normal since the time of Niño Ricardo (as the previous posts showed in examples). Look up basic marching drum rudiments as a start and apply those rhythms either strumming or plucking single notes, then apply the same rhythms to arpegios etc. Perhaps developing the hands drumming on a table will help as well. Simply put, strip away the melody and focus on pure rhythm. 3 against 2, 3 against 4, 6 against 4, etc, all basic common poly rhythms found in any music.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2023 20:45:39
 
davewphx

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Joined: Jul. 11 2011
 

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead

That was really nicely played Ricardo!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2023 23:37:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14912
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

Don't know when Niño Ricardo recorded that, 1940's? 1950's? maybe 1960's?


Regarding the synchopated falseta he recorded it as the intro for Mairena in 1966:



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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2023 16:21:20
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Regarding the synchopated falseta he recorded it as the intro for Mairena in 1966:

Cool!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2023 18:43:31
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