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Rondeña - Cante and Baile   You are logged in as Guest
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devilhand

 

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

Rondeña - Cante and Baile 

Can anyone post some videos of Rondeña for both cante and baile? I read in another thread this type of Rondeña belongs to Fandango family. Another source says it's used for serenading someone. It's obvisouly not R. Montoya's solo guitar Rondeña.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2022 22:35:17
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3402
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Rondeña - Cante and Baile (in reply to devilhand

this thread? http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=112499&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#112499 - a lot of useful info there...

I assume the following are all correctly labelled:













folkloric one;


baile;


This one is just called "abandolao";


does anyone know a) which cante abandolao is being sung? and b) what "abandolao" means? (i.e. what the word means literally, I know it's the generic family name for the eastern fandangos - I wondered if it came from "bandoleros" as they are part of the folklore and history of the Serrania de Ronda?)

From the thread linked to above this excerpt from Normans last post:

"The group of cantes has a few different names. You usually hear "cantes abandolaos" or "cantes de Málaga," and some people say "fandangos malagueños." If you call the group "verdiales" everyone will understand, but verdiales is just one of the cantes in this group. So it's like the cantiñas group and alegrías in that sense.

Nearly all descriptions of this group of cantes mention verdiales, jaberas and rondeñas, but there's also the zángano, the jabegote (jury's still out on that one), the fandango de Frasquito Hierbabuena and others. It looks like some of the cantes abandolaos came from a series of local fandangos from Málaga, Lucena, Granada and Almería that were the ancient folklore of the people who lived there. Manuel Cano wrote that flamenco singers came up with their own artistic versions of these local fandangos. The new creations were more difficult, so they were sung by professionals rather than housewives or farmers, for example. The flamencólogos don't offer much information on those ancient fandangos, saying that they're long lost and all we have today are the personal flamenco versions. For example, they say that the fandango de Granada turned into the granaína, the fandango de Almería became the taranta, etc. But there are still references to these ancient forms if you look hard enough."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2022 11:17:30
 
Piwin

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RE: Rondeña - Cante and Baile (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

I wondered if it came from "bandoleros" as they are part of the folklore and history of the Serrania de Ronda?)


Dunno, but I've heard that etymology before. The other one that I've heard relates it to bandolas.

As a side note, it's pretty common in Malagueñas to start libre and end with abandolao.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2022 18:11:42
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Rondeña - Cante and Baile (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

The flamencólogos don't offer much information on those ancient fandangos, saying that they're long lost and all we have today are the personal flamenco versions. For example, they say that the fandango de Granada turned into the granaína, the fandango de Almería became the taranta, etc. But there are still references to these ancient forms if you look hard enough."


So the titles are are all mixed up as usual for a lot of cantes because of mixing of styles. It is hard to get a handle on everything unless you find some anthology where they want to keep it all clear and label each verse differently, or if the singer deliberately doesn’t mix things. Again, I am talking about the cante melodies. The guitar chord rhythm (Abanolao or Abandolá or Verdiales, or Malagueñas all refer to the same rhythm, a slow fandango type compas) is thought to be older than Fandango, and obviously relates to other Andalusian folk music such as Seguidilla, Jotas, etc, but in terms of flamenco guitar, the modern concept of Jaleo compas (related to Bulerias) gets mixed in, such that I have heard the term “jaleada” in relation to a malagueña the gets into compas after a free style letra. The structure is normally the same 6 chord copla structure like Fandango, although more often only used in C major (in other words, there is not really a por medio version).

In terms of the singing, the meldodies all do different things and the poetry keeps the Fandango structure grounded (4 or 5 line verse structure). As a musician I often don’t understand the relationship of various melodies as grouped by flamencologists. For example, even Norman noticed the flat 7th of the copla of Fandango de lucena, and to my ear that form must relate to cantes mineros such as Taranto or Taranta, etc. I looked up the folkloric “Fandango de Granada” and even though they give fandango chords (until line 5 which is F instead of C), the melody moves to the 6th degree (A note conclusion) the first 3 phrases, just like Cartagenera (picaros) and other styles I mentioned recently in the Cantes mineros thread. Clearly related but to Granaina? I don’t hear it at all.

So this Rondeña you posted several times above, I hear 3 distinct Melodies… the first is the one that calls the G chord on the second line instead of F. The melody targets E (Cmajor) and B (G7), but has an interesting 4th line that drops to D below E tonic, for the G chord harmony the third time…which is exactly what Granaina would do. If anything THAT cante relates to Granaina IMO. Next the melody that Morente sings second, and the Cristana Hoyas dance practice example, sing what I always thought was Jabera (it drops to C below E tonic for the tercios to C major) and also uses G7 in place of the F chord. And finally, the 3rd melody, and always used as the macho or conclusion is very much like a normal Fandango that uses the F chord (melody drops CBA to call it, on the second line, typically). Now I have always thought of THIS melody as the proper “Rondeña” from whatever sources I learned from years ago, but based on all your examples I see some mixing of ideas here, where some singers instead do Verdiales (same chords but singers use the Bb clearly), one guy instead of the F chord went up to D above C (forcing the Guitar to play G) which was weird, but the rest the same, and the version of the girl at the end (unlabeled Abandolao) is like a mix of the two ideas (she sounds like she is following the normal Fandango thing like Menese, however she slips in the Bb like Verdiales, so its a mix).

I am thinking that a proper “Rondeña” is probably the first described melody that relates to Granaina, however, it is customary to do some sort of macho, and whatever that is it is arbitrary as the examples described.

I final crucial piece of info, and this is covered extensively in the Cantes Mineros book of chaves and Norman, the term “Rondeña” has been used historically on recordings where the cante is Taranto or variants of Minera/Taranta. Examples are Manuel Torre and Carmen Amaya, but there were others apparently. Considering Montoya used his special tuning for accompanying a singer por “Taranta”, it could very well be that outside of the Abandolao versions of accompaniment, the term Rondeña used for cante alone, was once synonymous with “cantes mineros”. “Taranto” as we think of it today did not get solidified as the term until much more recently in history. That means that in some of that super old literature where we read about Rondeña and Granaina etc, in the cases were it was not the folkloric abandolao versions, they could very well have been talking about cantes mineros and cante levante, etc. (Talking about the curious writings of Sarafin Estebanez Calderon). And last, since toque levante (F# phrygian) Montoya used as a title already (TarantA), and Minera (G#), his mentality for the “Rondeña” could very well have been in lieu of the term “Taranto” that we use today. So his piece was not meant to refer to the abandolao verdiales thing, but rather, another free form cante minero in an alternative guitar key.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2022 18:53:34
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1191
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Rondeña - Cante and Baile (in reply to mark indigo

Thanks for the youtube links. Mr. Marlow is already in his element again, giving a detailed overview. Appreciate that.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2022 20:18:50
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