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He should be a legend among flamenco guitarists by now, but the YouTube account under his name only has 2,200 subscribers. One of his videos was posted 16 years ago - so he’s been around a long time. Some of his more recent videos have fewer views than those posted by Foro members.
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
Why isn’t Javier Conde more popular?
what singers has he worked and/or recorded with?
what dancers has he worked with?
what Stu said re original material
i guess that's why
These are all good points - and I considered them before posting the question. I read that Javier received standing ovations after each song at a concert in Europe. I know he performed in Japan, but I’m not aware of him concertizing in the US.
Original material probably would have been enough to help him overcome the lack of interest in his playing. Even so, Grisha has a lot of views on his channel, but he hasn’t written new songs.
It doesn’t seem like there are any singers who are popular enough to help a guitarist build a career in flamenco. There are no towering figures in the genre as there were years ago.
If Javier had engaged the English-speaking world on the internet would that have made a difference?
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
quote:
I read that Javier received standing ovations after each song at a concert in Europe. I know he performed in Japan, but I’m not aware of him concertizing in the US.
He probably needs a manager and to tour relentlessly in Europe, the US and Japan. And to sell CD's (yeah, or memory sticks of mp3 or whatever) at the gigs - Flamenco artists rarely do that, promote their music at live shows, or offer any kind of merchandise. There are loads of indie bands who've never had a "hit single" who survive like a cottage industry touring and selling stuff...
quote:
Original material probably would have been enough to help him overcome the lack of interest in his playing. Even so, Grisha has a lot of views on his channel, but he hasn’t written new songs.
Might have been, but again, Grisha is based in the US, where there is maybe more of a market for virtuoso renditions of other known artists' work?
quote:
It doesn’t seem like there are any singers who are popular enough to help a guitarist build a career in flamenco. There are no towering figures in the genre as there were years ago.
I think in Spain that is probably the way to get known as a flamenco artist, and even outside Spain if you are known as an accompanist then there is a kind of mark of "authenticity" to that to give kudos to solo work... maybe, I'm kinda speculating here!
quote:
If Javier had engaged the English-speaking world on the internet would that have made a difference?
maybe - I think it is probably all of these things. A couple of albums with known singers would look great on his CV. Then if he hired some singers and dancers and toured the "Javier Conde Dance Company" all around the world and sold a solo album of Sabicas and Paco covers and an album of original contemporary solos at the shows and backed that up with an English language/Spanish web presence he would be on to a winner! Oh, wait, he needs to publish a book/audio/video guitar method with volumes for beginners as well as for off-the-scale advanced too!
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
Oh, wait, he needs to publish a book/audio/video guitar method with volumes for beginners as well as for off-the-scale advanced too
JC needed the business acumen of Juan Martin to be a successful musician in today’s world. I think Michael Schenker made his living by touring and selling merch at his shows.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
I hate to put this forward, because I don’t feel this way myself, but many people have this opinion of “chops versus feel”, and Javier fit into this typical category of a guy playing perfect recreations of classics with equal or BETTER technical execution…and people are left cold about the emotional aspects of the music that they normally get from the original versions. Again I don’t like that criticism but it would explain the situation.
Grisha, on the other hand, was criticized for the same, but in his case, especially as a foreigner, sparked controversy and debate. So the same type of criticism worked in favor of his popularity as he became a “controversial” figure in the genre. Javier remains as the “prodigy” that did not break through the early “copy the maestros first” stage of development, yet there is nothing there to “criticize”.
A further possibility is that in the early years of his appearance, the online situation involved his father often, and I can’t remember the details, but perhaps there were guitar deals gone wrong or some other such drama? It lingers in my mind as “poor Javier, he should be on his own doing his own thing”. I never forget him in Gerardo’s class 2006. As good as he was, he really wanted to work more on Cante accompaniment and Gerardo gave him that chance and he really was doing well. He did not like the advanced class of Gerardo and said to us “it was too hard” and dropped to the intermediate class (which is less of Gerardo’s music and more traditional material). We all played one after the other one night, and he was in danger of making us all look bad with his note for note “Doblen Campanas” of 1972….then Antonio Rey appeared and blasted us all with technique and duende. (Not including Gerardo himself who at the time played his traditional Solea Por buleria and made it clear who was the maestro of the gang).
I have no critiques of the guy’s playing of worth. For example the video of Nunez material first posted, I would not leave so much space between the phrases, but he is not “wrong” for doing that.
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I hate to put this forward, because I don’t feel this way myself, but many people have this opinion of “chops versus feel”, and Javier fit into this typical category of a guy playing perfect recreations of classics with equal or BETTER technical execution…and people are left cold about the emotional aspects of the music that they normally get from the original versions. Again I don’t like that criticism but it would explain the situation.
Grisha, on the other hand, was criticized for the same, but in his case, especially as a foreigner, sparked controversy and debate. So the same type of criticism worked in favor of his popularity as he became a “controversial” figure in the genre. Javier remains as the “prodigy” that did not break through the early “copy the maestros first” stage of development, yet there is nothing there to “criticize”.
A further possibility is that in the early years of his appearance, the online situation involved his father often, and I can’t remember the details, but perhaps there were guitar deals gone wrong or some other such drama? It lingers in my mind as “poor Javier, he should be on his own doing his own thing”. I never forget him in Gerardo’s class 2006. As good as he was, he really wanted to work more on Cante accompaniment and Gerardo gave him that chance and he really was doing well. He did not like the advanced class of Gerardo and said to us “it was too hard” and dropped to the intermediate class (which is less of Gerardo’s music and more traditional material). We all played one after the other one night, and he was in danger of making us all look bad with his note for note “Doblen Campanas” of 1972….then Antonio Rey appeared and blasted us all with technique and duende. (Not including Gerardo himself who at the time played his traditional Solea Por buleria and made it clear who was the maestro of the gang).
I have no critiques of the guy’s playing of worth. For example the video of Nunez material first posted, I would not leave so much space between the phrases, but he is not “wrong” for doing that.
I know you don’t like the common criticism regarding “too many notes,” etc. Whether you call it duende, soul or breathing life into music some people have this ability and others don’t. I think it’s often necessary to sacrifice technical prowess for the sake of melody and harmony. A few weeks ago I posted Gerardo performing Puente de los Alunados as a solo piece. This song requires intermediate level technique IMO and is well below Gerardo’s technical ability, but when it comes to melody and harmony it’s a masterpiece. Anyone who can write songs like this deserves to have a career. After all it’s the music, not the technique, that people enjoy.
IIRC Javier’s father used to sell his son’s guitars on eBay. Also, his father was often mentioned when Javier’s name came up.
I enjoyed Javier’s performance of Gerardo’s La Cartuja. Not many people can play on that level. It’s just a shame that his career appears to be withering on the vine.
Posts: 1937
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
What makes a real musician is composition in my opinion. There are many technical monsters out there, but very few with genuinely interesting material. Javier is one of the best around yet I can't recall hearing much original pieces of his and if you just copy other people's work, you remain in the "cover band" category. It gets you gigs and you might be able to make a living, but you won't be recognised for who you are, but maybe what you're capable of. Aside of ability, outside circumstances can really make a career - Paco had toured the world as a kid and made so many connections and absorbed so many influences and genuine life experiences which inspired him in his creations. But the real thing is (and noone seems to mention this) is charisma, which is of course hard to change. The real greats all had it - I can't really see it in Javier unfortunately.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
I think it's hard for a flamenco guitarist to establish a "career" as a soloist. In Spain if you haven't played for important singers or dancers, gonna be tough. Even if you have, making that transition seems to be incredibly difficult-there are so many really good players who are nowhere near being able to tour under their name. How much demand is there really?
Antonio Rey is clearly one of the most talented soloists today and he was doing gigs in living rooms a few years ago. Doing classes. I saw him in Santa Barbara a few weeks ago and he's being suported by locals on this tour. Drew a couple hundred folks maybe.
Paco and Vicente, and to a lessor degree Tomatito, were able to bring their own people, but Antonio is doing the Chuck Berry thing at the moment.
The guy tours pretty much non stop, and I think its going to work for him, but his "career", at least in the US, is nowhere near his talent at this stage.
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
I find him a little off putting visually too. dunno if thats a bit mean..so sorry javier.
Yeah me too actually. Why is that? Terrible!
I also remember after he got his name out there he stuck to playing traditional flamenco like Sabicas and such, and maybe that killed the buzz around him after a while. Like, people thought oh he’s a talented player and young, but going back instead of forward. Been there done that, move on to another guy… whereas maybe Grisha was also covering some trad but also some modern, and his name has long been out before YouTube was around
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
I find him a little off putting visually too. dunno if thats a bit mean..so sorry javier.
me too, I think it's his lower lip, it sort of hangs there like he's gonna start drooling or something...
I was having second thoughts about the dance company thing, maybe that's just too last century, maybe he "needs" to get collaborating with DJ's and rappers and "electronica" and get some urban-fusion thing going...
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
Kind of to echo the sentiments. He's a monster player but I have never felt he had his own voice or compositions. Players like Diego Del Morao, Dani De Moron, Antonio Rey etc. are almost instantly recognizable in their playing and "voice" and have really came forefront.
Posts: 1937
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Stu)
It is mean :) - but I guess it's part of the charisma. Antonio is amazing and is trying to do the solo artist thing, but I think he's been repeating himself for years in his new compositions. It seems that he's milking the west coast of the US for concerts, but I don't really see him going to places where flamenco used to go often through the "big four". Of course times are changing and general demand for flamenco is ever decreasing too.
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I hate to put this forward, because I don’t feel this way myself, but many people have this opinion of “chops versus feel”, and Javier fit into this typical category of a guy playing perfect recreations of classics with equal or BETTER technical execution…and people are left cold about the emotional aspects of the music that they normally get from the original versions. Again I don’t like that criticism but it would explain the situation.
Grisha, on the other hand, was criticized for the same, but in his case, especially as a foreigner, sparked controversy and debate. So the same type of criticism worked in favor of his popularity as he became a “controversial” figure in the genre. Javier remains as the “prodigy” that did not break through the early “copy the maestros first” stage of development, yet there is nothing there to “criticize”.
A further possibility is that in the early years of his appearance, the online situation involved his father often, and I can’t remember the details, but perhaps there were guitar deals gone wrong or some other such drama? It lingers in my mind as “poor Javier, he should be on his own doing his own thing”. I never forget him in Gerardo’s class 2006. As good as he was, he really wanted to work more on Cante accompaniment and Gerardo gave him that chance and he really was doing well. He did not like the advanced class of Gerardo and said to us “it was too hard” and dropped to the intermediate class (which is less of Gerardo’s music and more traditional material). We all played one after the other one night, and he was in danger of making us all look bad with his note for note “Doblen Campanas” of 1972….then Antonio Rey appeared and blasted us all with technique and duende. (Not including Gerardo himself who at the time played his traditional Solea Por buleria and made it clear who was the maestro of the gang).
I have no critiques of the guy’s playing of worth. For example the video of Nunez material first posted, I would not leave so much space between the phrases, but he is not “wrong” for doing that.
Late to the party but I saw the post and was interested. What you said was also my first feeling, robotic playing that does not move the audience, they do not feel anymore enlightened after watching a performance. Great players yes, but not the best performers, as harsh or critical as it sounds. There is no emotion or expression to move the audience. Emotions are irrational, in the context of music they activate the limbic portion of the brain which bypasses logic. Logically these players are awesome but they dont speak to the portion of the brain that draw people to come back for more without knowing why. Its the same reason Apple is so successful, their marketing speaks directly to the limbic brain which bypasses logic. Logically apple sells computers just like any other computer company, yet they are far more successful because of their clever marketing and ability to tap into the portion of the brain that causes people to drop $1500 on the newest iDevice without thinking.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to trivium91)
It's so subjective. I was walking out of a Vicente Amigo concert and two guys were discussing it, saying he had incredible technique but no feeling. I just smiled to myself.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: trivium91
Late to the party but I saw the post and was interested. What you said was also my first feeling, robotic playing that does not move the audience, they do not feel anymore enlightened after watching a performance. Great players yes, but not the best performers, as harsh or critical as it sounds. There is no emotion or expression to move the audience. Emotions are irrational, in the context of music they activate the limbic portion of the brain which bypasses logic. Logically these players are awesome but they dont speak to the portion of the brain that draw people to come back for more without knowing why. Its the same reason Apple is so successful, their marketing speaks directly to the limbic brain which bypasses logic. Logically apple sells computers just like any other computer company, yet they are far more successful because of their clever marketing and ability to tap into the portion of the brain that causes people to drop $1500 on the newest iDevice without thinking.
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
It's so subjective. I was walking out of a Vicente Amigo concert and two guys were discussing it, saying he had incredible technique but no feeling. I just smiled to myself.....
When I hear comments like this I always wonder about the background of the person making the comment. I saw the Romeros perform with the symphony years ago and two women wearing fur stoles said something about “flamingo.” You can’t be too critical IMO - after all, they did buy tickets.
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
It's so subjective. I was walking out of a Vicente Amigo concert and two guys were discussing it, saying he had incredible technique but no feeling. I just smiled to myself.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: trivium91
Late to the party but I saw the post and was interested. What you said was also my first feeling, robotic playing that does not move the audience, they do not feel anymore enlightened after watching a performance. Great players yes, but not the best performers, as harsh or critical as it sounds. There is no emotion or expression to move the audience. Emotions are irrational, in the context of music they activate the limbic portion of the brain which bypasses logic. Logically these players are awesome but they dont speak to the portion of the brain that draw people to come back for more without knowing why. Its the same reason Apple is so successful, their marketing speaks directly to the limbic brain which bypasses logic. Logically apple sells computers just like any other computer company, yet they are far more successful because of their clever marketing and ability to tap into the portion of the brain that causes people to drop $1500 on the newest iDevice without thinking.
Vicente Amigo….no feeling! Blasphemy! Lol you are likely right though about it being subjective but also perhaps some people are poor judges of character and others better at it. Yes definitely it’s subjective just the same as peoples taste in music, otherwise Paco would have been filthy rich like Taylor Swift. At any rate when i was a younging my classical guitar teacher at the time accused me of playing robotically, though not as bad as my older brother. I didnt really truly understand what it meant at the time, or really what it felt like to be enlightened by creating music for that matter so it was true in a sense.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to trivium91)
A small part of me wanted to admonish them, but what's the point? You like what you like.
When I was in college I auditioned for the jazz band. It was super competitive. Like 50 guitarists trying for three spots. First time I pulled out a strat and got thrown out. Next semester I brought a 60.00 steel string and luck was with me. The audition tune was Joy Spring and I knew it well. I got the third spot and pretty much sucked at it all semester-my reading wasn't where it needed to be, and I was not a jazz guy, just a young musician interested in the challenge of playing difficult music.
I decided to test the limits of my good fortune by auditioning for classical guitar lessons. They only had one teacher, and she could only take a few students. She roasted me, saying my teacher should be taken out and QUIETLY shot. Since I had not studied with a classical guitar teacher I assumed she thought I should just end it all. Not a cheery bunch those classical players.......
quote:
ORIGINAL: trivium91
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
It's so subjective. I was walking out of a Vicente Amigo concert and two guys were discussing it, saying he had incredible technique but no feeling. I just smiled to myself.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: trivium91
Late to the party but I saw the post and was interested. What you said was also my first feeling, robotic playing that does not move the audience, they do not feel anymore enlightened after watching a performance. Great players yes, but not the best performers, as harsh or critical as it sounds. There is no emotion or expression to move the audience. Emotions are irrational, in the context of music they activate the limbic portion of the brain which bypasses logic. Logically these players are awesome but they dont speak to the portion of the brain that draw people to come back for more without knowing why. Its the same reason Apple is so successful, their marketing speaks directly to the limbic brain which bypasses logic. Logically apple sells computers just like any other computer company, yet they are far more successful because of their clever marketing and ability to tap into the portion of the brain that causes people to drop $1500 on the newest iDevice without thinking.
Vicente Amigo….no feeling! Blasphemy! Lol you are likely right though about it being subjective but also perhaps some people are poor judges of character and others better at it. Yes definitely it’s subjective just the same as peoples taste in music, otherwise Paco would have been filthy rich like Taylor Swift. At any rate when i was a younging my classical guitar teacher at the time accused me of playing robotically, though not as bad as my older brother. I didnt really truly understand what it meant at the time, or really what it felt like to be enlightened by creating music for that matter so it was true in a sense.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
otherwise Paco would have been filthy rich like Taylor Swift.
Paco had two homes, in Mexico Playa de Carmen on the beach and in Madrid, then he bought a freakin Castle. A friend in charge of concert series told me the flamenco players fees. Nunez group, $7000, $5000 for the trio. Vicente, $10,000, Tomatito $20,000, and Paco….ONE MILLION DOLLARS, for a 10 show minimum. If they could only line up 8 or 9 spots for a tour of USA, he still charged $1 million, which the tour manager would have to figure out how to work it per each venue. This is why we see long stretches where Paco would not come to USA.
So, not sure what “filthy” means but Paco was doing very well there by the end of it all.
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to Ricardo)
Oh I didn’t know this, I just randomly looked up what his estimated net worth was online and it was only like 1.5 Million. I guess those are not that accurate. https://allfamousbirthday.com/paco-lucia/
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
otherwise Paco would have been filthy rich like Taylor Swift.
Paco had two homes, in Mexico Playa de Carmen on the beach and in Madrid, then he bought a freakin Castle. A friend in charge of concert series told me the flamenco players fees. Nunez group, $7000, $5000 for the trio. Vicente, $10,000, Tomatito $20,000, and Paco….ONE MILLION DOLLARS, for a 10 show minimum. If they could only line up 8 or 9 spots for a tour of USA, he still charged $1 million, which the tour manager would have to figure out how to work it per each venue. This is why we see long stretches where Paco would not come to USA.
So, not sure what “filthy” means but Paco was doing very well there by the end of it all.
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to hamia)
I hear you but I don't think it is the same expectations when it comes to classical music.
In the flamenco culture, it is important for everyone to have their own material, lyrics, falsetas (the forms are very limited so they have to be personalized otherwise everyone sounds the same). That's not the case in the classical world...
And yes I agree with you, he is a top notch player with great technic.
RE: Why isn’t Javier Conde more po... (in reply to tk)
quote:
I don't think it is the same expectations when it comes to classical music.
IMHO that's really all it boils down to. Flamenco just doesn't have that culture of musicians as interpreters. Personally, I greatly appreciate what the handful of guitarists who have chosen that route do. There's a lot of value in it, but admittedly it's not the route to stardom in this particular genre.
Javier was an accompanist at a tablao in Madrid for quite a while. He disappeared at some point (IIRC he landed a teaching gig in Germany). I think he's back but I'm not entirely sure (I haven't really returned to the flamenco scene since covid). Either way, I remember thinking that he wasn't my favorite accompanist but that he got the job done well enough.
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