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El Burdo

 

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Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

Why do you love flamenco? 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2022 13:00:33
 
edguerin

Posts: 1576
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

Much (most) of what you say sounds very familiar. My love started with Manitas de Plata (yes, I blush at that), then came my first guitar; a lot later Juan Martin etc. etc. (I'm told I'll be 70 this fall).
I too feel that i might be enjoying flamenco as "an historical artefact", i.e. the nostalgic musings of an elderly (old ) man, sipping sherry...

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El aficionado solitario
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2022 18:04:18
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 532
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

The hairstyle.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2022 21:52:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

I got into guitar in middle school cuz the guy that could play for real got all the chicks. Later I got into flamenco for all the dancer chicks.

More seriously, a thread linked in a thread:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=264139&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=summer%2Ccamp&tmode=&smode=&s=#264211

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2022 16:44:37
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1944
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RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

I started with guitar electric, formed a group and ended up playing telenero for Cream. The memory always makes me smile: one of the worst groups in the world playing before one of the best groups in the world.

When I started to learn flamenco guitar, I discovered that I preferred the cante and used to play along with a tape of Manuel Soto accompanied by Melchor.

I recounted this story last year to Vicente Soto when he sang for the Peña: he laughed and said "All the guiris think that flamenco is guitar!"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2022 17:21:33
 
El Burdo

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2022 21:19:33
 
Arash

Posts: 4481
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

I think for me it originally started with Ottmar Liebert nouveau flamenco album if I remember correctly lol

Then I heard Paco and boom.

Then I joined foroflamenco and made fun of poor Ottmar.
Dick move kinda, considering that kind of music was the entry.

But yeah, before that I played e-guitar and was into stuff like Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2022 9:34:26
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

Ricardo - I think that thread is a different thing - answering the question 'what led you to flamenco'?

I'm wondering what it was/is about flamenco that you love - 'predominantly' to give the question a chance. For me, after a bit of Wow! Guitar! the social context and its connection to the emotion of the music became really significant. If Duende is to be experienced, I think it will be as a result of group interaction rather than seeing/hearing a solo concert performance which to me will relate more to appreciation of the skill of the artist and their ability to interpret a piece of music than anything else. I'm not judging it - it's just not what hurts my soul.

From your posts and family context I would guess that 'playing the guitar' is a significant angle, and the challenge of flamenco makes it more interesting. Of course that doesn't prevent loving the music itself either.


“That thread” actually were two…how you got into it, and the link there was mentors and teachers. I feel that those two subjects answer the question, for me…what it WAS I loved, and later what it IS that I gained from mentors in the genre that constructed “what I love about flamenco” today. I guess I skipped on specifics in those topics, so here are some.

I think “Duende” is personal despite the collective “electricity” people insist is happening in the right environments. I have felt it both alone and with very large group involvement. Often it is about an individual that brings it, or turns it on. Another term is “energy” that people use. When I notice someone bringing it, I do my best to ramp it up and keep it alive, regardless of the audience or collective environment. It can totally be a performance situation, but also just two people in a small room, for each other. Just because you find yourself with the ideal private Juerga with top level artists, doesn’t guarantee good stuff will come of it. Another thing, some folks might not be in tune with, is the artistic competition that creates a tension in the air so to speak, when you have people aware of who is who in a room. That can lead to great things, or very negative things depending on how it goes. The other thing some people are not aware of is “hazing” and putting people in their place, that goes on in the Juergas that doesn’t happen on stage. While it is designed to educate the initiated, it can be nerve wracking and really kill the duende. At the same time, going through that painful process sometimes leads to important artistic break throughs.

In order to truly define what you love about flamenco, it is needs to be revealed what would make you want to quit it. In my case it was one dancer on the job situation, and if I had not confirmed with other artists I respect that THAT individual was known for their “issues” in the same regard, I might have retired permanently from that world. I enjoy the rumba thing because I can improvise and shred, do the trio stuff, etc, plus I get to sing and feel the big chorus like when I was a teenager in the rock bands. It also keeps my chops up, although I admit flamenco puro is much harder mentally than physically. Staying on top of your game is very difficult, especially as you get older. Of all the Paco videos out there that are instructive, the one in Busqueda where he is in the hotel with his kid on the floor and he is drilling that “old” bulerías from Zyryab….that really gets to me. It’s how flamenco is so hard you can’t let that thing go for even a couple days or you lose it, and there is the master still working hard on it.

Last, I have gotten into the flamencology thing, thanks to discussions on this foro and some privately off line. I have always been interested in the evolution of the music, singing and guitar mainly, of course that is just intellectual boring nerd stuff and the genre could be completely extinct to get into that. In the end if it is the juerga that moves you or dance classes, whatever, the world is what WE make of it, so just do it then.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2022 12:47:42
 
El Burdo

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2022 11:06:40
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1239
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

The main reason why I'm here is the sound of arabic oud. Somehow I ended up learning flamenco guitar. Sometimes I think to myself - The wrong instrument, the wrong forum.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2022 20:04:02
 
Escribano

Posts: 6356
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to Morante

quote:

I recounted this story last year to Vicente Soto when he sang for the Peña: he laughed and said "All the guiris think that flamenco is guitar!"


I think you have to live there for a while to get this. For me, it was this soleá that inspired me to go and live in Andalucía and learn some more. Still my favourite.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2022 20:25:31
 
RobF

Posts: 1341
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to devilhand

I love that Simon Shaheen piece.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2022 22:31:13
 
RobF

Posts: 1341
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to Escribano

Love that Pepe Habichuela piece, too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2022 22:40:42
 
Stu

Posts: 2091
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

I think I love flamenco for all the obvious reasons.

But I also feel in love with the actual process of learning (guitar) and that's what really hooked me.

I remember feeling really exhilarated by getting to know these specific techniques and breaking then down and getting good at them. Something about the solo pursuit of study.

Yeah I know music/flamenco it's about all elements together. And usually work loads of people. I love that too.

But the discipline and progression and journey of discovery I had for about 15 years was what I truly loved about flamenco. (Before I got a real job and a family)

I guess maybe you could say that's it could've been any music or art that would give me similar satisfaction. But it wasn't/isn't. It's flamenco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 24 2022 11:26:32
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 151
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

I love Flamenco,
- Because it is centered around the singing (at least the flamenco I like)
- It's accoustic. No need for electricity and technology
- That A Andalus is digging deep in my guts and I love it
- it doesn't have any drums. I'm fed up with the 4/4 drums in rock. Palmas and Cajon are so dynamic and subtle
- lots of 3/4
- as a guitarist, the right hand technics are amazing.
- because I have as serious dose of masochism in me: if I had known before of all the work and the dedication needed to learn Flamenco guitar, I would have never started.

That's it I think.

Fluknu
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 24 2022 15:28:11
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3416
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to Fluknu

quote:

It's accoustic. No need for electricity and technology

it doesn't have any drums. I'm fed up with the 4/4 drums in rock.

as a guitarist, the right hand technics are amazing.


Those things I can really agree on.

The first time I knowingly heard flamenco it was solo guitar, and I was instantly hooked, bewitched, enchanted....

The sound of the wood, the sound of the strings...

But what I also really liked about it was how the guitarist got all these different sounds from the guitar, not from a board of effects pedals but, as I later learned, from the different right hand techniques.

that was one record 30 years ago....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 25 2022 21:44:51
 
El Burdo

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2022 12:59:02
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3416
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

I still don't think that what got you started identifies what it is that you love -

No, but that first record is enormously significant for me, because many other things came from that, so that is a big "before and after" moment for me. And there are a LOT of things I love about flamenco, and I didn't have so much time last night, so that was both the beginning of loving flamenco, and the beginning of saying what I love about it.

I also remember one particular moment when I "got" the cante, which I admit was some while later, but I'd have to add that in too. By that time I was already sitting in on dance classes, which is something else I love.


quote:

- I like many others started with guitar but actually love the communal nature of a shared immersion in a profound sound which resonates with history and experience.

That's one of them, or perhaps several of them...

The main thing for me that I love is how the cante, the guitar, and the baile all touch me and move me in ways that nothing else does.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2022 14:09:23
 
El Burdo

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2022 14:59:12
 
Stu

Posts: 2091
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

Stu, you accidentally put your finger on the problem - what ARE the obvious reasons?


I think I see what youre saying. I kinda confessed to not answering the question at all. haha

I know one thing I really love in flamenco. It's the simplicity. and let me finish! haha

and this one is guitar based.

When a guitarist and some rythym (Palmas, cajon, knuckles on a table) are playing together. nothing crazy or complex just super tight clean and concise. I get a massive kick out of that!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2022 15:02:16
 
Stu

Posts: 2091
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to Stu

I tell you one thing.

I hear non aficionados telling me how much they "Luuurrrrve flamenco"
more than any actual flamenco guys do.

I guess someone with a genuine love is more low key by the nature of their connection/immersion in it.

Whereas others, who've heard a bit of spanish sounding guitar now and then.....Reallllllly lovvve flamenco!

sorry, Im being a snob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2022 15:05:31
 
RobF

Posts: 1341
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to Stu

quote:

When a guitarist and some rythym (Palmas, cajon, knuckles on a table) are playing together. nothing crazy or complex just super tight clean and concise. I get a massive kick out of that!


For me, that’s it, right there. I originally said Canté tends to bring that to the table, but actually any gathering where the guitars, canté, dance, palmas, etc. come into sync and start feeding off each other to drive the energy. Those moments can be transcendent.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2022 16:01:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:


Then of course there's 'belonging' to a culture which is an important human need.

Anyway, interesting at how difficult it seems to be to be able to identify what you love.


In the past it was noted that many of us flamenco guitarists and aficionados were also martial artists at some point. Flamenco is an art form that requires and lot of dedication and discipline and in that sense it might be a similar concept. In the same manner, asking people what they “love” about a Martial Arts form is an odd question, because you can’t say “I love getting into fights and kicking peoples asses”, so then why do this thing? The reason Cobra Kai was a successful show, other than playing on the nostalgia of the movie, it was that “cool karate club” idea of belonging to the group that you mention.

But again as to why the “love” of the art form, it has a lot to do with the discipline aspect IMO. This also ties in to the concept of a “Sansei” or “maestro” or mentor/teacher that is important and implies apprenticeship and something deeper than a hobby type “love” for the art form. On foro I keep the Nunez avatar and others such as Morante that are deeply involved always reminds of his mentor in cante, or Eric of Rotterdam that would predictably mention his father in every post. “Love” is not really the correct word for something that many of us feel an obligation to be involved in at a very deep level.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2022 17:43:42
 
Brendan

Posts: 295
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

You can perform with other people without having to be in a sodding band.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2022 20:02:12
 
RobF

Posts: 1341
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

But again as to why the “love” of the art form, it has a lot to do with the discipline aspect IMO.


While I don’t disagree with your post, I don’t think it’s necessary for one to be a practitioner of an art form to love it or that the depth of emotion or appreciation a practitioner experiences exceeds that of an aficionado. I think this applies to art in a general sense, not just flamenco or other musical forms. Mainly because most art must transcend its form if it’s going to survive in any meaningful manner, I think.

*edit* Arrghhh, I don’t know if I’m explaining this very well. What I’m trying to say is flamenco is more than just the music or dance or whatever can be seen as the outward expression of what it is. But I think that’s pretty well true of any art form that has had significance.

*edit 2* Still struggling with this. In a sense, I think what you are describing is devotion, rather than love. Maybe that’s what threw me off.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2022 21:11:22
 
trivium91

 

Posts: 174
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

I love the unconventional Phrygian scales and sound, the passion and expression, the aggressive but yet beautiful, the hypnotic and poetic nature, the most beautiful rendition of the modern guitar. I love the challenge, while at times frustrating, its fruit that it bears taste so sweet. The emotion that is interlaced in the music taps into the abstract...the spiritual, concepts that seems to be long forgotten in favour of what society sees with their own eyes or is simply distracted by social media and the latest trends. I love the feel of the guitar between my fingers, the way my right hand glides over the strings with speed and finesse. A form of communication and expression that are too personal to communicate with words. The long term goals, how something has so much depth and layers that is offers one to be in the moment but yet maintain a strong vision for the future, a vision that feeds motivation to continue and improve through daily practice sessions. No longer longing for the weekends, Flamenco evens out the days in the weeks as there is always something to look forward to both in the here and now and the future.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 16:15:25
 
frhout

 

Posts: 452
Joined: Apr. 28 2005
From: France

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

Someone gave me a tape around 1977, side A is Sabicas, side B is the rest of Sabicas's record and Christopher Parkening. I was amazed by Sabicas. The record was Flamenco on Fire, I think there is another vinyl with a different title but having the same tracks. I still love it now.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 18:01:08
 
mecmachin

 

Posts: 118
Joined: Aug. 7 2010
 

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to El Burdo

For me, what makes Flamenco so special, is polyrhythm.

I think the question is entangled with the other active thread in this section "What other Music do you guys listen to other than flamenco?". I listen (and have to listen) to anything which comes along. When the music has something stimulating - harmonically or rhytmically - and not beyond of what I can digest, I like it. But after listening twice, it is getting a bit boring most of the time. It is somehow missing a dimension.

So, for active listening I prefer flamenco. To me this has more to do with an addiction than love...

Mecmachin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 20:23:25
 
El Burdo

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2022 22:10:25
 
Schieper

 

Posts: 201
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Why do you love flamenco? (in reply to devilhand

realy nice...thanks devilhand
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2022 22:15:12
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