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RobF
Posts: 1366
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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 RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest)
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Hi Andrew,
Pictures of the bridge showing the saddle clearance could give a good idea of how much adjustability you have if you do need to lower the action. The string height at the bridge is also a good measurement to make with respect to playability for flamenco. The ruler you have in your picture can’t be used for this measure, however, as it’s a drafting ruler with an offset zero. A machinist’s ruler with no offset is needed for all these guitar spec measurements.
I suspect things may not be as bad as you fear, but yeah, pics of the bridge with the camera aiming along the top from the front so the bridge and saddle heights can be seen would be helpful. Also, when measuring the action at the twelfth fret using the drafting ruler, if you adjust the camera so it sights across the strings (aligned to the bottom of the strings), then an estimate of the action can be made by deducting a 1mm fret height from the measurement of the distance between the fingerboard and the bottom of the string. The parallax in the picture you posted makes it hard to get an accurate reading, even reading by eye the parallax should be corrected for by reading the ruler with your eye at string level (again, aligned to the bottom of the strings).
At any rate, it doesn’t hurt to learn these basics, and the knowledge can help you make a more informed purchase next time and hopefully avoid this kind of disappointment. But still, it might turn out to not be so bad. Maybe this is just an adjustment period tainted by a touch of buyer’s remorse. You might even end up liking the guitar after you’ve had some more time to get acquainted with it.
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Date May 10 2022 3:21:08
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RobF
Posts: 1366
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Andrew83
I talked to Antonio, he and Sanchiz are not willing to give my money back, but Sanchiz is currently working on couple of same models like this negra, Antonio offered to replace the old one to that new. I only hope that the measurments will be more satisfiying.
The pictures you’ve taken aren’t very useful for online analysis, I think in your case it’s best to physically show the guitar to a knowledgeable person and take their advice.
Based on what you’ve said and shown, it’s hard to have a good feeling about this, so I think take the replacement, hope for the best, and sell it once you get it. Then go buy a guitar from a reputable dealer with an honest return policy and a written bill of sale. Also make sure any communications you have with these guys moving forward are in writing. I’m surprised at the way you’ve been treated in this deal, but you didn’t do much to protect yourself so hopefully you will do better with the replacement, maybe they will try to select one that’s more suitable to your needs.
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Date May 10 2022 11:34:10
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Ricardo
Posts: 13824
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Andrew83
I cannot be lowered as the bridge is already very very low. I showed it to a master, he told this to me.
I bought it from Antonio himself, so did not get any bill of any proofe.
I texted him that I would like to send it back and get my money back,but he refused me :(
Yes, I can see now, it is all a bad story. Antonio should know better cuz he is an inspiration as a player. The set up is not unusual, the stiff pulsation etc is a result of the neck angle set up was too far forward (we have talked about this in the past where I point out the Goldilocks zone is 3mm 12fret and 7mm bridge, and trying to hit that and the guitar shifts half a millimeter when they glue the back on, and it is a mess.). While there is a way to fix this problem, it is a bit involved, and no it is not fair they don’t offer you a refund. I am sure many pros could play it just fine with that set up, but it would not be fun. The Conde I recorded my album with was dangerously close to this setup, but I played pretty aggressively back then so it was perfect for me. Now a days I prefer a lower set up. Antonio plays very hard and I can imagine he likes this (or something close to it). If you end up stuck with it here are the options to fix it:
1. Remove the saddle and file down the bridge where the saddle slot is, such that you get a millimeter or two more exposure of the current bone saddle. From there you can either get a new bone saddle to file (measured against the old one) or file down the existing one (from the bottom up) as low as possible such that you have a string break angle of X>0. To check before doing all that remove the bone saddle and bring the strings up to pitch. This will have intonation off but you can see if you are improving the action over the fingerboard. If that feels perfect it means your break angle will be zero. If you get a break angle of 0 then you have to do the following:
2. Fill the string tie holes and have them re-drilled at a lower angle. (From behind the bridge angled down toward the headstock). This means when you tie the strings they have enough break angle against the bone saddle to have good intonation and no buzz. I have fixed one nice guitar for a student with great results doing this. The luthier only charged like $100 and it saved a $5000 guitar. The other option is to fill the string holes then drill a 12-hole tie block style. That means a different method of tying the strings will result in a steeper break angle. Many modern luthiers are doing this deliberately for all their guitars, however I personally only see it as a necessary evil for situations such as yours.
Wish you the best of luck amigo!
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date May 10 2022 12:57:32
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RobF
Posts: 1366
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to JasonM)
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quote:
What do you guys think about adding taller frets in a case like this? Assuming he kept it?
I generally use standard height frets (about 1.1 - 1.2mm high after dressing) but on my last trip to Spain a builder there told me he liked to use low frets for flamenco due to the use of the capo. His flamenco guitars had their frets dressed to about 0.9mm. Notwithstanding that tidbit, taller frets is an option that could be considered.
But, I don’t think someone should have to do any kind of major work like fret replacement or FB planing to salvage the playability of a brand new guitar. To be fair, the pictures do not account for parallax and are virtually useless for online evaluation, seeing how the ruler is sitting probably about 4mm away from the string and the camera is looking down at it. But I’ll take a shot anyways, this being the internet….so…I attempted to duplicate the offset in the picture with a guitar and found it accounted for about 1mm of the measured value of 5mm, once the parallax was removed. From the adjusted measurement of 4mm subtract another millimetre for the fret height and you get an action sitting in the neighbourhood of 3mm, which is acceptable, and could be influencing the refusal to process a return (if Sanchiz is feeling the guitar is within spec). This doesn’t mean the saddle has much clearance and the break angle does seem to beg for a 12 hole conversion, but again the pictures aren’t taken at the correct angles to draw any viable conclusions.
The bottom line is Andrew finds the guitar very difficult to play, the numbers really are secondary to that. He’d probably be happier with a different guitar.
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Date May 10 2022 17:03:25
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RobF
Posts: 1366
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest)
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Hi Andrew,
If they offered to exchange it for a new one, that would be the prudent move to make. This time do it on the up and up, conduct all business in writing and get a proper bill of sale from HSL.
A couple of things about this deal are sticky…
The webpage for the advert you linked to on the first thread looks like an official HSL page showing an Antonio Rey artist model. But when you inquired about it they suggested that you were talking directly to Antonio Rey and the deal could be done informally through WhatsApp without a bill of sale? This sticks me as a funny way for an established shop to do business. I don’t want to make too many leaps but I have some thoughts about this…
Q1 - are you sure it was Antonio Rey that you were communicating with and not some errant employee? This is important as Antonio Rey’s reputation is at stake and he might be getting blamed for something he had nothing to do with. Have you tried reaching out to him via different methods, such as his Facebook page, to confirm that it was actually him you dealt with?
Q2 - similarly, are you sure the HSL company is aware of what happened here? Could you reach out to them via alternate methods to talk to one of the owners or the sales manager directly? It just seems that as the deal was conducted in an unusual manner they also might not be aware of it.
If neither Antonio Rey or the company were officially aware of the transaction but it was done by someone associated with them, then I suspect they would welcome the opportunity to make things right. I mean, I’d want to know if I had an unethical employee if it were my business and if I were a performing artist endorsing a product I would also want to know that the sale of the product was being conducted in an ethical and professional manner.
If they were involved, then perhaps looking into the applicable consumer protection laws in the EU would be a step. This is basically what AndresK suggested earlier in this thread. You will need all the correspondence, including the WhatsApp messages, but that may provide enough evidence to convince the company to act more ethically. Assuming they had anything to do with it. Even if they didn’t, what Andres suggested makes sense as it might bring some clarity to what seems to be a very muddy situation.
Finally, if it turns out Antonio Rey wasn’t personally involved (in other words, you were lied to), then you have an obligation to work with him to correct any harm that may have been brought to his reputation by what’s happened here. Same with the HSL company, because as it stands neither of these parties are looking very good and it would be a shame if it’s all due to a misrepresentation made by some dishonest employee. That being said, they can’t really wash their hands of the whole affair if the item was taken from their inventory and the initial correspondence was conducted via the email address provided on their webpage. They’ll want to fix this.
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Date May 11 2022 14:20:28
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AndresK
Posts: 184
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
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RE: Hermanos Sanchiz - ANTONIO REY Negra (in reply to Guest)
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Knobloch medium hard is quite hard for some flamenco guitars. Knobloch has thick basses. Low tension Knobloch is all I can stand regarding their basses. Luciano Ghosn had the same opinion too when he was playing Knobloch. Jose Maria Bandera used medium tension QZ Knobloch on some of his guitars and low tension QZ on others, and you can imagine that he did not put low tension on badly made guitars, it is just that some guitars do not need even medium tension to sound robust. I also have a very cheap classical "converted" to flamenco with 12 hole to get the break angle and lowering the bridge, and bones, and even the fretboard, replacing the frets afterwards (all these before I bought a real flamenco guitar). And yes this cheap classical is easier than any other guitar I have played with even hard strings on, as it sounds a bit dead even with medium, but I cannot get clear phrasing on it and not the sound and volume I get with my main guitar even with low tension strings.
RobF is also right. I think they will not make the same mistake twice. They will give you an easier guitar hopefully. Until then try Knobloch low tension, or D'Addario EJ45, which is easier than Luthier 20 or La Bella 2001 low tension or LA Bella 427 or even Solera Alma since you live in Europe and you can get them only for 13,5 euros from cuerdasguitarra.com . You will feel very much of a difference until you get the new guitar.
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Date May 12 2022 5:49:18
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