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Gypsies never create, they are mere interpreters...   You are logged in as Guest
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Steelhead

 

Posts: 88
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

Gypsies never create, they are mere ... 

In case you thought no one nowadays would have the chutzpah to propound this old canard, here is veteran flamencologist José Luis Ortiz Nuevo explicitly voicing it. Gypsies only interpret, all the genuine MUSICIANS, that is, creators, of flamenco have been gachos (except for el Mellizo and Ramón Montoya).

<<Camarón, Mairena, Pastora... eran interpretes.
Los grandes músicos eran gachos excepto dos.
Los grandes músicos eran Silverio, Chacon,
Pepe marchena y Enrique morente
Esos son los grandes músicos aparte de los tocaores,, Paco de lucena, Niño Ricardo, Sabicas y Paco lucia.
Los gitanos tiene ese metal, el leco, pero los grandes músicos son los gachos salvo dos el Mellizo y Ramón montoya
A Caracol se lo compusieron, era un intérprete, a Mairena igual a Camarón igual y el Lebrijano igual. Tienen esa garganta ese metal y los gachos tiene otra capacidad para crear, otra inquietud, que a mi entender Enrique morente es el más valioso ejemplo de músico flamenco>>


https://www.facebook.com/mario.daza.161/videos/602685450926512

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Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2022 22:29:31
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Gypsies never create, they are m... (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

flamencologist José Luis Ortiz Nuevo


The only people who really understand cante are the cantaores. Este ni sabe tocar las palmas.

The Soleá de Cádiz is an amalgam of the cantes of Enrique and Paquirri, maybe some payo wrote them?

The Seguiriyas del Viejo de La Isla is thought to be the patron of the many estilos of this cante. Maybe some payo wrote it for him. Who knows?

The Gitanos del barrio de Santiago invented various distinct styles of seguiriyas:I remember the padre of Esequiel Benítez criticising Terremoto for mixing styles from various creadores
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2022 15:37:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gypsies never create, they are m... (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelhead

In case you thought no one nowadays would have the chutzpah to propound this old canard, here is veteran flamencologist José Luis Ortiz Nuevo explicitly voicing it. Gypsies only interpret, all the genuine MUSICIANS, that is, creators, of flamenco have been gachos (except for el Mellizo and Ramón Montoya).

<<Camarón, Mairena, Pastora... eran interpretes.
Los grandes músicos eran gachos excepto dos.
Los grandes músicos eran Silverio, Chacon,
Pepe marchena y Enrique morente
Esos son los grandes músicos aparte de los tocaores,, Paco de lucena, Niño Ricardo, Sabicas y Paco lucia.
Los gitanos tiene ese metal, el leco, pero los grandes músicos son los gachos salvo dos el Mellizo y Ramón montoya
A Caracol se lo compusieron, era un intérprete, a Mairena igual a Camarón igual y el Lebrijano igual. Tienen esa garganta ese metal y los gachos tiene otra capacidad para crear, otra inquietud, que a mi entender Enrique morente es el más valioso ejemplo de músico flamenco>>


https://www.facebook.com/mario.daza.161/videos/602685450926512


Before people get bent out of shape by the implications there, first of all mellizo is the only cantaor I am aware of who has an anecdote about stealing some other melody and turning it into an already established form (Malagueña). The anecdote is on wiki about mellizo that he heard a priest sing it and was inspired to use it for his own thing (I think it is in Alvarez Caballero? Would be great if someone could track down the source of that). Right there, we see how “creation” works. Chacon did the same thing with Canario’s malagueña (in case you believe that Canario created his own malagueña which of course could be the same type of thing going on). And the bigger irony of all was (the same flamencologist I think, oritiz nuevo?) Pericon was asked about the origin and he said they got a bundle of Flemish scores in Cadiz in 1512, picked the best songs to learn, then passed the bundle up to Jerez and finally Sevilla. In a sense no one is a creator possibly (and indeed what I believe), anymore than there are “creators” of the blues. The Forms have a basis that was left behind to be interpreted, that is the whole point of the genre.

As soon as singers and guitar players invent “new” music, they necessarily change the forms and therefore it is not accepted or doesn’t “breed true” and carry forward. There are rare cases such as famous letras by Pepe de Lucia or Vicente Amigo that were “catchy” in their day and still used, but for the most part, anything that is not “canon” is rejected as part of the lexicon. While inspiration can come from any source, the truth is that since it first appears, flamenco is inspiring new singers and guitar players with its own classic repertoire. That by nature has to be interpretive and not creative.

EDIT: I tracked down the Mellizo anecdote finally. It is from Manuel Ortega (father of Caracol) telling to Pericon. Although Alvarez Caballero does not use proper citations for this, I assume it is found in 1000 and 1 histories of Pericon…as told to the same Flamencologist that started this thread, Ortiz Nuevo. The story goes he heard singing of a cura (priest) in Iglesia de Santa Maria (his neighborhood in Cadiz, near to his butcher shop). The quote is vague and does not directly apply to him using a specific melody as much as being influenced for cante in general. The only specific attribution is the intro (that only Pericon does as far as I know) which is a spin on the normal intro all malagueñas use (Am-F, F7-E), using liturgical lyrics with extra chord G, (Am-G-F-E).

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2022 16:06:25
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 136
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Gypsies never create, they are m... (in reply to Steelhead

Maybe "creation" is just when the existing material you use/mix/transform/scultp cannot bee seen, just enough so you're still in the "Doxa", or else you become apocryphe :)

I've always thought that creativity had nothing to do with making appear something out of nothing (which is physically impossible) but more about inverting/mixing/changing/cutting/adding and so on....

There are of course breakthrough in every domain, when we think "that is totally new". But I believe it's still the same process. A new level of complexity, certainly - like when you go from single cells to the organisation of cells and then to the building of an organ - but still, it follows the same principles.

But another thing I often see in music is the interpretation, and I'm talking about the live interpretation of music. A song can be totally new in the moment, when the artists transcend themselves, and it's as if it was the first time it was created. On the opposite side you have all those stars playing their hits at a concert for 1000' time. Like good clerks :)

I guess we should probably look at the songs as always new material and never the same. Something new, beautiful and dangerous.

Bla bla bla :) I'm stoping here.

Fluknu
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2022 20:03:18
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1153
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Gypsies never create, they are m... (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

Gypsies only interpret, all the genuine MUSICIANS, that is, creators, of flamenco have been gachos (except for el Mellizo and Ramón Montoya).

Ridiculous. It's not about gitanos vs. payos. It's about the community. All these flamenco figuras were born into gitano community.

Talking about community and creation, this reminds me of the term folk music, which was defined by the International Folk Music Council in 1954. Flamenco fits this description very nicely.

"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are:

(i) continuity which links the present with the past;
(ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and
(iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning the re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk-character."

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2022 23:33:19
 
Steelhead

 

Posts: 88
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

RE: Gypsies never create, they are m... (in reply to Steelhead

A few things. One, that 1954 definition of folk music is archaic and ethnocentric. Based on the distinction between written and orally transmitted music, it would categorize Indian classical music as "folk."
Second, many flamenco ppl would regard this statement as gitanocentric:
<<It's not about gitanos vs. payos. It's about the community. All these flamenco figuras were born into gitano community.>>
Poveda? Mayte Martin? The list could go on and on. But perhaps I am misinterpreting what you wrote.

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Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2022 22:36:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gypsies never create, they are m... (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

Second, many flamenco ppl would regard this statement as gitanocentric:


No worries, Mano de diablo has yet to get a flamenco guitar.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2022 12:04:51
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1153
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Gypsies never create, they are m... (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

Poveda? Mayte Martin? The list could go on and on.

The thing is someone can come aroud the corner and say Poveda and Mayte Martin are mere interpreters. This constantly recurring discussion about gitano vs. payo has become so trite and boring.

As for José Luis Ortiz Nuevo, this is the same guy who compared Rosalia with Niña de los Peines. Give me a break!

"In each of her songs there are fourteen or twenty hints of flamenco. What she does is what Siverio did in the 19th century and what Pastora Pavón did in the 20th century. We should be lighting candles in her honor and thanking her for all the great things she does in behalf of this art".

You can read more about it here.

https://www.expoflamenco.com/en/bordonazo-new/the-poet-and-rosalia

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 30 2022 16:36:28
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