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Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 126
Joined: May 12 2020
 

Talent 

quote:

My conclusion is that people with less talent must make up for it with excessive and obsessive practice and learning. People with massive natural talent, don't need quite the same obsession, but they often have it anyway because they love what they do.


A friend told this to me....I agree! While I started playing rock guitar and got good at the shred to some extent..

I think for me the discouragement comes from how to practice. Because I work a full time job, I only have time to practice 1 to 2 hours a night.

A little more on the weekends....I do believe that the more naturals musicians practice but get it faster then me.

1 to 2 hours isn't going to do much....Before I give up all together...I am going to seek a teacher. NOT because I have trouble learning compas or palos..

I found that slowing down videos and looping as helped a lot.

But the problems is the MISTAKES I keep making no matter how much I slow my speed down or play it a little faster so my hands get used to playing it at full speed.

Will a teacher know why I am not accurate? I think I need some exercises for techniques and possible someone to see what I am doing wrong.

I do not want to become like famous flamenco's I know that is not possible. I just want to play and possibly do more youtube videos to share with everyone...

But, I won't release anything when I keep making mistakes.

It is so fustrating...I play slow and no longer make the mistake at that part but some where else in the falsetta I make a mistake s...DAMN...This is frustrating..

I am sure when pro's say they have a bad night, they aren't talking about accuracy in their playing....I am sure they are talking about not being in the ZONE! You know that blanked out feel of just playing and feeling good with the way they expressed it...

I guess life is too short to be unhappy! It is hard to walk away from something you put time in effort in...But, I do not know which is worst....Walking away or not being able to advance and possibly fooling myself!

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2022 16:51:01
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1257
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

A teacher would be able to spot your mistakes and correct them. A good teacher has a bunch of exercises ready and will make individual adjustments to suit your hands. You definitely need a teacher! (By the way, I specialize in that sort of thing myself ;)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2022 17:29:44
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 126
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Grisha

quote:

A teacher would be able to spot your mistakes and correct them. A good teacher has a bunch of exercises ready and will make individual adjustments to suit your hands. You definitely need a teacher! (By the way, I specialize in that sort of thing myself ;)


I am willing to put in the practice....I will contact you!

Thanks,
Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2022 18:39:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13512
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

But the problems is the MISTAKES I keep making no matter how much I slow my speed down or play it a little faster so my hands get used to playing it at full speed.


Many people don’t realize they are making any mistakes, so you are way ahead of the game.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2022 19:48:30
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 126
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Many people don’t realize they are making any mistakes, so you are way ahead of the game.


Thanks Ricardo! The problem I am having is on my Arps. I will play it clean on some parts and then out of no where my fingers slip...

Ramzi a.k.a El Rumbero has this awesome Buleria that he wrote and I have learned it and can play it with Dr. Compas at 154 to 160 bpm.

It has been a year and when I first started to learn...Of course I played it SUPER slow. But why am I still not accurate? I played it slow, medium, fast etc.

Solea, is the same, but, not as bad but still i am not as accurate as I want to be.


I swear if there were exercises I could do with supervision and I was told to do them for ONE YEAR SLOW at 55 bpm and no compas or falsetta until then, I would do it if I knew it would help.

But, what exercises do I practice, I know get a teacher! And, I will before I finally move on.


Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2022 20:06:54
 
Mark2

Posts: 1733
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

My arpeggios improved quite a bit in six months by doing planting exercises. Place your thumb on the bass note and your i finger on the g string, m finger on b string, and a finger on the high e string. Plant them on the strings.

Now, play one note at a time without moving the other fingers off the strings they are on. Change up the order that you play the notes.

Another exercise is to reverse the i,m, and a fingers so that you are resting your index on the high e, your "m" finger on the b string and your "a" finger on the g string. Plant them. Now play the arpeggio backwards and forwards.

These exercises have really cleaned up my arpeggios and allowed me to play solea por buleria in particular with more clarity and speed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2022 20:44:10
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 126
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

My arpeggios improved quite a bit in six months by doing planting exercises. Place your thumb on the bass note and your i finger on the g string, m finger on b string, and a finger on the high e string. Plant them on the strings.

Now, play one note at a time without moving the other fingers off the strings they are on. Change up the order that you play the notes.

Another exercise is to reverse the i,m, and a fingers so that you are resting your index on the high e, your "m" finger on the b string and your "a" finger on the g string. Plant them. Now play the arpeggio backwards and forwards.

These exercises have really cleaned up my arpeggios and allowed me to play solea por buleria in particular with more clarity and speed.


Hi Mark2,

I have been working on planting and have been doing what you have been doing...I started doing this a month ago...

How long did you see results? Did you still play falsetta's while practicing plant or did you just practice technique.

I do the planting with a metronome slow...

See I think what I am starting to wonder is am I practicing the right way?

For example: I played lots of scales for speed on picado and felt I wasn't making good progress. Then one day I realized that I need to isolate my right hand and do staccato work. So, what I did is play all open strings first starting with 4 beats alternating staccato at quarter notes, eight notes, triplets then sixteen notes. All of this is done slow with in 55 bpm. Then I worked some chromatic scales. This seems to help lots, but, here is where I think a teacher will help. Is this correct path to becoming better?

I feel like I am forever walking into the forest only to never find my way out....

There are so many cool teachers....Grisha, Ricardo, etc. and THEY ARE AWESOME PLAYERS......How do I pick what teacher will be right for me?

Some teachers mite say to work on compas, falseta and technique all at the same time...The other line of teachers mite say to work strictly on technique and the once you have a solid foundation start learning palos.

Being that I jumped in and just started learning with really not working a lot on technique, I am thinking maybe of going back to the beginning and revamping everything. Even if that means starting over from scratch and doing exercises. But that is where I am hoping a teacher will help evaluate me to see. Give me the right kind of practice to make progress.

I am tired of doing this all on my own..

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2022 22:42:08
 
Mark2

Posts: 1733
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

I'd say it took two-three months before I saw results, and I'm still improving. I also spend time learning falsetas, playing along with records, etc-I do technique for an hour or so, then move on.

I've been studying flamenco since the early 80's and have studied with many teachers. I haven't taken lessons for many years until two years ago when i signed up for weekly lessons with Tino online. I've learned so much in the two years I've been doing it. Feedback from a teacher is critical, so is recording yourself if you expect to improve. Sign up with Tino! Or Ricardo! Or Grisha!

You can't go wrong-just do it!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaloguitarist

quote:

My arpeggios improved quite a bit in six months by doing planting exercises. Place your thumb on the bass note and your i finger on the g string, m finger on b string, and a finger on the high e string. Plant them on the strings.

Now, play one note at a time without moving the other fingers off the strings they are on. Change up the order that you play the notes.

Another exercise is to reverse the i,m, and a fingers so that you are resting your index on the high e, your "m" finger on the b string and your "a" finger on the g string. Plant them. Now play the arpeggio backwards and forwards.

These exercises have really cleaned up my arpeggios and allowed me to play solea por buleria in particular with more clarity and speed.


Hi Mark2,

I have been working on planting and have been doing what you have been doing...I started doing this a month ago...

How long did you see results? Did you still play falsetta's while practicing plant or did you just practice technique.

I do the planting with a metronome slow...

See I think what I am starting to realize is.....Am I practicing the right way? For example: I played lots of scales for picado until one day I realized that I need to isolate my right hand and do staccato work. So, what I did is play all open strings first starting with 4 beats alternating staccato at quarter notes, eight notes, triplets then sixteen notes. All of this is done slow with in 55 bpm. Then I will do this for chromatic scales. This seems to help lots, but, here is where I think a teacher will help. Is this correct path to becoming better? Do I stop playing falsetta's and compas?

Strictly work on technique and what is the best possible way to work to get better....

I feel like I am forever walking into the forest only to never find my way out....

There are so many cool teachers....Grisha, Ricardo, etc. and THEY ARE AWESOME PLAYERS......How do I pick what teacher will be right for me?

Some teachers mite say to work on compas, falseta and technique all at the same time...The other line of teachers mite say to work strictly on technique and the once you have a solid foundation start learning palos.

Being that I jumped in and just started learning with really not working a lot on technique, I am thinking maybe of going back to the beginning and revamping everything. Even if that means starting over from scratch and doing exercises. But that is where I am hoping a teacher will help evaluate me to see.

I am tired of doing this all on my own..

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2022 22:53:52
 
JasonM

Posts: 1851
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Talent (in reply to Mark2

Just learn Trafalgar by Gerardo Nunez and you will be an arps master!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2022 3:00:51
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 126
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Just learn Trafalgar by Gerardo Nunez and you will be an arps master!


Ha, Ha, LOL, Will that help me with planting, LOL! Our very own El Rumbero has this cool Buleria he composed that I have learned...There is some cool exercises in that one..

I wouldn't even attempt to try and learn anything from Geraldo Nunez...LOL But, thanks for your chime in JasonM

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2022 15:04:12
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1189
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

The problem I am having is on my Arps. I will play it clean on some parts and then out of no where my fingers slip...

quote:

I wouldn't even attempt to try and learn anything from Geraldo Nunez...LOL

No one is born with talent. One is born to it. Don't think you have no talent. What you need is a systematic approach to executing arpegio correctly. I've been practicing apreggio for about 2 years. I'm satisfied with the result. That G. Nunez arpeggio is not a problem for me. I'm talented? The answer is No!
I only found out the correct way of practicing and executing arpeggio. You can do it too.

Just to get you started look at 3:00-5:00. It's pima and pami. He shows arpegio with thumb free stroke. But you have to practice it with thumb rest stroke instead.
Start slowly and relax your fingers. Extremely high attention to what you're doing and to tension while practicing is the key. If you manage to relax your fingers completely, you feel that the finger movements come from the big knuckles. I haven't spent much time on arpeggio. I guess in total around 1-2 hours per week for arpeggio. I was very concentrated during my practice routine.



Forgot to mention it. It's important. First you have to find the perfect arpegio hand position and nail shape. Perfectly customized to your arm and hand anatomy. After you've found the perfect angle, nail shape and hand position, your fingers will be planted perfectly whenever they touch the strings. Even at a high speed. You don't have to think about planting when playing super fast arpeggio because of the factors above.

I suggest you practice mostly in a classical sitting position. But make sure that you maintain that perfect arp hand position.
There are subtle details left unmentioned because it's difficult to put into words. For me the whole thing was a progress through trial and error. A teacher will show and correct you in no time.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2022 20:02:53
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3401
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Grisha

quote:

A teacher would be able to spot your mistakes and correct them. A good teacher has a bunch of exercises ready and will make individual adjustments to suit your hands. You definitely need a teacher! (By the way, I specialize in that sort of thing myself ;)


Grisha, link to your website in your profile doesn't work (showing as .com not .us)

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2022 23:03:31
 
MichaelSheridan

 

Posts: 13
Joined: Jan. 10 2021
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Grisha

Studying with Grisha transformed my playing. I'm a concert classical guitarist. I started with him because I love flamenco and wanted to learn some but it, of course, helped my classical rep as well. He quickly helped me clean up little details of my technique that were never noticed or helped by my very expensive Master's degree from the conservatory.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2022 11:28:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13512
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Thanks Ricardo! The problem I am having is on my Arps. I will play it clean on some parts and then out of no where my fingers slip...


A simple mental thing I do when I keep coming up against a hiccup or technical obstacle at tempo. First, understand that in certain spots if you THINK you might screw it up in performance, then you absolutely WILL screw it up. It is a horrible thing like your brain is telling yourself to mess up on purpose. So, to do the opposite of that, think of a thing you can play blind folded and drunk right as you fall out of bed. Doesn’t matter what it is, strumming a D chord or something simple like that, tuning your guitar. Whatever THAT is, you sort of imagine that the harder thing is just like that natural.

For example, I can strum rumba dead on no problem ever guaranteed perfect every time. So that easy and natural thing I try to imagine into my picado, or arpeggio sequence, or fast pull off etc…it doesn’t matter that the compas is different like buleria or whatever complex thing… somehow it is a simple rumba and I nail it mentally, and if my fingers had ever drilled the thing correctly, the ease suddenly comes into it and I won’t mess it up.

Now of course things will happen unexpectedly and you have to just dismiss those things. The more you get natural with rhythm and relax the less those little unexpected slips will happen.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2022 13:24:39
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 126
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Now of course things will happen unexpectedly and you have to just dismiss those things. The more you get natural with rhythm and relax the less those little unexpected slips will happen.


Ricardo, this is very cool what you have mentioned. In reading your post above what you said, I sometimes wonder how much it is my belief that makes me mess up. Like subconscious..

Devilhand, Thanks for the video, I will watch again....And I believe Atrafana School of Flamenco also goes over this stuff too...But Pumping Nylon's instructor does a great job at showing the planting technique...So thanks for that...

I do really believe a teacher mite get me over this hump and I am so glad this forum exist....Thanks for the support.

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2022 15:05:58
 
silddx

Posts: 130
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

My teacher recommended this book, I got it last month, it's really excellent. https://blog.christopherberg.com/2019/06/14/practicing-music-by-design-historic-virtuosi-on-peak-performance/

I agree a good teacher is very beneficial. I have made much more progress in my two months with a teacher for an hour or so per week than all the time I put in before. He is correcting my techniques and teaches with great care and attention to every detail. It is already paying great dividends. I thought I could get away with a Flamenco Explained subscription, but there is no substitute for someone correcting the small details of one's physical techniques and tailoring the lessons to one's particular needs.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2022 22:08:53
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 126
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Studying with Grisha transformed my playing. I'm a concert classical guitarist. I started with him because I love flamenco and wanted to learn some but it, of course, helped my classical rep as well. He quickly helped me clean up little details of my technique that were never noticed or helped by my very expensive Master's degree from the conservatory.


quote:

My teacher recommended this book, I got it last month, it's really excellent. https://blog.christopherberg.com/2019/06/14/practicing-music-by-design-historic-virtuosi-on-peak-performance/

I agree a good teacher is very beneficial. I have made much more progress in my two months with a teacher for an hour or so per week than all the time I put in before. He is correcting my techniques and teaches with great care and attention to every detail. It is already paying great dividends. I thought I could get away with a Flamenco Explained subscription, but there is no substitute for someone correcting the small details of one's physical techniques and tailoring the lessons to one's particular needs.


Thanks MichaelSheridan & Silddx,

This is all very encouraging that studying with a good teacher can transform ones playing...I am planning to do the same!

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2022 14:37:29
 
JasonM

Posts: 1851
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

That’s a great Jedi mind trick, Ricardo! I’m gonna try this. Mind over matter.

Kalo, I sort of struggle with the same issue… so your not alone. although, I often just accept the problem spot, and move on, then I come back to iron out the wrinkles. And maybe this isn’t the best way because I’m practicing my mistakes? But at the same time, I want to play the whole thing to make sure I can indeed tackle all the hard spots. It’s like a catch 22.

Right now I’m working on Ricardo’s Paco Tutorial 4, AGAIN still, and trying to get rid of the wrinkles that have frustrated me to the point insanity because I know I’m capable, but it just ain’t happening!

The only thing to get these stubborn things out (for me) is to work on that problem spot with a metronome, over and over, and try to be honest with myself about speed. It’s hard work and not a fun aspect of playing for me. Because, you might have it one day to find the next that you don’t have have to go back to it. Again uggh! Like Ricardo says, can you play it after falling out of bed in the morning half drunk lol?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2022 15:08:09
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 126
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Because, you might have it one day to find the next that you don’t have have to go back to it. Again uggh! Like Ricardo says, can you play it after falling out of bed in the morning half drunk lol?


UGH, TELL ME ABOUT IT!!!!! That is EXACTLY what is happening to me....How to get around this....HOW????? Is it revamping techniques????? And, yes, I use a metronome and do exactly what you do....

Is it NERVES, is it subconscious....LACK OF TALENT....Need a teacher (which I know I should and will get)

I am procrastinating in studying with a teacher because I am so afraid that won't help either and I still will make the mistakes...LOL

Maybe I need to get a little toasted and I won't notice anything....HA, especially when trying to make videos to so the forum my progress
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2022 17:43:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13512
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

Having a weekly gig really helps, if you have enough repertoire to work on in public.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2022 18:17:54
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 126
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Having a weekly gig really helps, if you have enough repertoire to work on in public.


What I really want to know is there is 2 lines of teachings:

1) Learn Falsetta Plus Compas, no need to work on technique exercises and you kill 2 birds with one stone
2) Militant and work on drill exercise techniques like crazy before learning falsetta and or compas this way you don't develop bad stuff.

I have done the 1st....And, well
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2022 18:46:39
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3401
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Talent (in reply to silddx

quote:

My teacher recommended this book, I got it last month, it's really excellent. https://blog.christopherberg.com/2019/06/14/practicing-music-by-design-historic-virtuosi-on-peak-performance/


I've read that book, I thought it was interesting - the stuff about science/neuroscience research into performance and the apparent (according to the author) parallels with 19th Century performance pedagogy. On the other hand it is very classical oriented, studying scores etc., so I was trying to translate the ideas in my head to make them applicable to flamenco....

Also an anecdote about Rachmaninov - someone went to visit him and heard him playing something he didn't recognise - turned out Rachmaninov was practising one of his well-known pieces but so glacially slowly it was unrecogniseable.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2022 19:54:25
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3401
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

What I really want to know is there is 2 lines of teachings:

1) Learn Falsetta Plus Compas, no need to work on technique exercises and you kill 2 birds with one stone
2) Militant and work on drill exercise techniques like crazy before learning falsetta and or compas this way you don't develop bad stuff.


Does it have to be either/or - can be both? I think it's really down to whatever you can get to work for you, to keep your interest, enthusiasm, inspiration etc. going.

I practise a short set of short scales/exercises for warm-up/technique practise every day and have done for years - to keep it fresh they all work in one key and transpose around keys. It's a process of constant long-term refinement.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2022 20:14:22
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1189
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Talent (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

What I really want to know is there is 2 lines of teachings:

1) Learn Falsetta Plus Compas, no need to work on technique exercises and you kill 2 birds with one stone
2) Militant and work on drill exercise techniques like crazy before learning falsetta and or compas this way you don't develop bad stuff.

I have done the 1st....And, well

It's never too late. You know what to do.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2022 15:08:13
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