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JasonM

Posts: 1806
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rosalía (in reply to Pgh_flamenco

quote:

Grisha hosted a live stream last night and I was lucky to catch the last 20 minutes of it. He had a copy of Juan Martin’s flamenco method on a music stand and suggested it as a starting point for learning flamenco


I noticed that too. So I had to unsubscribe to Grishas channel!!

Jk Juan Martin’s vhs tapes were the only thing I found in my Music Store back in the day. I thought, wow, I can learn flamenco from a real Spaniard lol! Hey…Got me started. Things are different now though.


PS: All roads on the Foro lead to Juan Martin or Conde
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2022 15:28:10
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Rosalía (in reply to JasonM

quote:


PS: All roads on the Foro lead to Juan Martin or Conde


Not so. If you want to learn to accompany, Merengue con Churumbaque is an incredible resource.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2022 15:50:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13338
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rosalía (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

A Williams fan told me, "He was just having a bad night." No, that's what Williams did when he was on his "Let the music speak for itself" kick. Perfect technique without a scintilla of expression: intentional vandalism.


Well, that in itself, if indeed was what he was doing, is artistic and difficult in a way. Related exactly, different music however, was this piece by steve vai where he plays the main melody at first by only placing a finger in the correct fret and plucking the string with the pick… zero expression. As the tune progresses he uses more and more personal effects to express the theme. Ironically it was that very first pass that he had to re-record over and over hundreds of times, never satisfied as always some personal effect snuck in and tarnished the concept.



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2022 19:03:44
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Rosalía (in reply to Pgh_flamenco

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco

Grisha hosted a live stream last night and I was lucky to catch the last 20 minutes of it. He had a copy of Juan Martin’s flamenco method on a music stand and suggested it as a starting point for learning flamenco. He also praised Manitis de Plata and Carlos Montoya. Viewers kept asking Grisha for his opinion about the “professor,” but Grisha refused to criticize him and even said positive things about him.

When I started playing "flamenco" in the 70ties whe didn't have the www yet and flamenco records and concerts were hard to find over here in the Netherlands and probably around the world. At the time the Juan Martin book was one of the few sources of info one could find (my father bought us a copy as well probably with me in mind) and it was the inspiration for many players of my generation. I didn't have the discipline to study it myself but favored to struggle along with the flamenco records I had. For various reasons I wasn't a big fan of Juan myself but I have to say that after watching a very young Grisha performing a couple of Juan Martin's pieces I came to the conclusion that in capable hands the Juan Martin material actually can sound pretty good. The book itself does however have some strange finger suggestions.

Although flamenco records were pretty hard to find over here in those days finding a record of Manitas de Plata was a bit more easy. I remember playing each track a couple of seconds before rejecting it for being to chaotic. 20 Years later I found his verry first record (the making of which is a story of its own) which actually was verry acceptable. Also I found a video recording of him playing one of his bombastic pieces life on stage and whatever one thinks of it, it's some highly impressive playing and as Grisha was saying totally unique. So over time I started to admire him as well (in some aspects).

As far as Carlos Montoya is concerned, at the time public wasn't ready yet for a solo guitar recitle so life on stage he tried to offer his audience the whole experience of flamenco using colored lights etc to create a flamboyant atmosphere. You can think of it what you want (and I can be wrong) but I tend to believe he paved the way for the flamencoguitar to be accepted on stage as a solo instrument. According to my father he was on top verry good in playing folkloristic dances and songs.

_____________________________

The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2022 20:01:02
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3308
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Rosalía (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

Although flamenco records were pretty hard to find over here in those days finding a record of Manitas de Plata was a bit more easy. I remember playing each track a couple of seconds before rejecting it for being to chaotic. 20 Years later I found his verry first record (the making of which is a story of its own) which actually was verry acceptable. Also I found a video recording of him playing one of his bombastic pieces life on stage and whatever one thinks of it, it's some highly impressive playing and as Grisha was saying totally unique. So over time I started to admire him as well (in some aspects).

As far as Carlos Montoya is concerned, at the time public wasn't ready yet for a solo guitar recitle so life on stage he tried to offer his audience the whole experience of flamenco using colored lights etc to create a flamboyant atmosphere. You can think of it what you want (and I can be wrong) but I tend to believe he paved the way for the flamencoguitar to be accepted on stage as a solo instrument. According to my father he was on top verry good in playing folkloristic dances and songs.


There is no doubt in my mind that Carlos Montoya paved the way for the solo flamenco guitar concert. Aside from seeing Jose Greco's group on TV in the late '50s (a very young Paco de Lucia played with Greco's group) I first developed an appreciation for flamenco guitar in Phoenix, Arizona at the age of 17 with vinyl albums by Carlos Montoya in 1960. That same year I was privileged to attend a solo guitar concert by Carlos in Phoenix. Subsequently over the years I attended two more concerts by Carlos, one in 1982 at the Kennedy Center in Washington, DC. In none of Carlos's performances that I attended did he use colored lights or a flamboyant atmosphere. It was just Carlos and his guitar, and he captured the audience, including me.

I regret that I never attended a live performance by Sabicas. Sabicas was, and is, my favorite flamenco guitarist, but he did not travel much, as he apparently had a fear of flying, and he never performed at any place I happened to be at the time. I have vinyl albums and CDs by Sabicas, but I would have loved to see him perform live.

As much as I enjoy cante, I still treasure those early performances back in the '60s to the early '80s featuring solo guitar. I know Carlos comes in for a lot of criticism for not maintaining compas among other things. That was deliberate; he could maintain compas if he wanted to. But his greatest gift was introducing a lot of people like me to the beauty of the flamenco guitar, although later I developed a more nuanced understanding of flamenco as an art form.

Regarding Manitas de Plata, My good friend Paco de Malaga once told me that Manitas de Plata often would begin his solo concerts by sitting with his guitar, mute, looking off into the distance in the auditorium for maybe 15 or 20 seconds, and then would suddenly begin passionately playing a fiery piece. It was all contrived, of course, to appear as if he were waiting for inspiration to hit him, and once it did, to begin playing with passion and emotion.

Long ago, Brigitte Bardot had a thing for Manitas. There are videos on the internet showing Manitas playing guitar with Brigitte sitting beside him. He seemed to have captivated Brigitte by leaning in close to her with a smoldering look in his eyes, as he played a driving rasgeuado, followed by a tremelo. As he is leaning in and playing, BB smiles, plays with her hair, licks her lips with her tongue, and looks like she can't wait to jump into bed with him. I'm sure Brigitte was just one of his many conquests.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2022 23:31:45
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3219
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Rosalía (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

A Williams fan told me, "He was just having a bad night." No, that's what Williams did when he was on his "Let the music speak for itself" kick. Perfect technique without a scintilla of expression: intentional vandalism.


Well, that in itself, if indeed was what he was doing, is artistic and difficult in a way. Related exactly, different music however, was this piece by steve vai where he plays the main melody at first by only placing a finger in the correct fret and plucking the string with the pick… zero expression. As the tune progresses he uses more and more personal effects to express the theme. Ironically it was that very first pass that he had to re-record over and over hundreds of times, never satisfied as always some personal effect snuck in and tarnished the concept.




To me, the Steve Vai example tends to support the contention that total, continued lack of expression is a musical defect. There is a little expression in the first statement of the theme, slight dynamics, tiny portamentos. But what would be the point of the piece without the steadily building level of expression, the more and more floridly decorated variations?

Of course my introduction to the Bach Chaconne was the likes of Jascha Heifetz, Nathan Milstein, et al. Heifetz was accused of "coldness" by some critics, but his range of expression far exceeded what any guitarist could accomplish.

On the guitar of course I first heard it recorded by Segovia. When I started buying LPs it was hard to come by any other classical guitarist, though we lived on the East Coast. Segovia knocked 'em dead in Paris when he first played it in concert.

Years later I bought a CD of Pepe Romero that included the whole suite that contains the Chaconne. "Too cool, too staid, too low voltage," i thought when I heard the first few variations. But Romero did a similar thing to what Vai did, despite the fact that his instrument had neither to dynamic range nor the pitch variability of Vai's. Pepe's expressiveness gradually built, until by the end you were moved by emotion. I'd have to get out the recordings to compare, but Pepe may never have reached the level of intensity that Segovia did. Still, the buildup was moving.

In Williams' performance at Merida it was 14 minutes of total blankness, no expression, no emotion, nada. There wasn't even the rhythmic precision exhibited by Vai in his first chorus. In this particular case I agree with Angelo Gilardino (RIP) when he referred to Williams as "a mere virtuoso." It annoyed me because Williams is capable of so much more.

Now I'm reminded of what else Williams played that night. His most recent CD had been "El Diablo Suelto," a collection of Latin American pieces. He played a nearly interminable list of them, reading off the page. Though each piece embodied a Latin American rhythmic form, Williams sounded like a Midi app: metronomic rhythm, no dynamics. I sat through it thinking, "El Diablo Durmido."

Williams is capable of really great playing: his Barrios, for example--though I like Alexander-Sergei Ramirez better.

Sorry for the classical rant, folks. I'll keep quiet about it now.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2022 23:36:48
 
Mark2

Posts: 1696
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Rosalía (in reply to JasonM

I saw Carlos perform, and it was as Bill related-just him and his guitar. His technique was really impressive to me at the time. I have a record of him accompanying some old school stuff. He could play in compas whenever he wanted to. My teacher, who was a friend of his, said he played "Hollywood" style.

I also saw Sabicas live, and it was a similar experience, although by then I was familiar with some of his records, especially "Flamenco Puro" I had, and still have, an LP featuring Carlos and Sabicas on alternating cuts. It was a rondena by Sabicas on that record(Giants of Flamenco), that inspired me to learn flamenco. It starts with an orchestra, then a rooster crows, and then Sabicas plays a typical rondena chord....it's magic.

Juan Martin didn't have any serious impact in my area. We had Mariano Cordoba and Juan Serrano in the area so Sr. Martin was not a factor. We also had David Serva, who did have a huge impact on players in the San Francisco area.




quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

quote:

Grisha hosted a live stream last night and I was lucky to catch the last 20 minutes of it. He had a copy of Juan Martin’s flamenco method on a music stand and suggested it as a starting point for learning flamenco


I noticed that too. So I had to unsubscribe to Grishas channel!!

Jk Juan Martin’s vhs tapes were the only thing I found in my Music Store back in the day. I thought, wow, I can learn flamenco from a real Spaniard lol! Hey…Got me started. Things are different now though.


PS: All roads on the Foro lead to Juan Martin or Conde
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2022 23:46:34
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