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johnnefastis

Posts: 577
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

Sevillanas felt in 2s 

Anyone know why these Juan Martin Sevillanas pieces are often played with a two feel?

I have been trying to play Sevillanas with what I think is the correct Fandangos 3 feel but these seem to lean towards a 2 feel (like this guys foot).

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2022 14:43:03
 
mecmachin

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Aug. 7 2010
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to johnnefastis

If I remember well, Graf Martinez said they are played in 3/4 and sung partially in 2/4, the overlay of which would give some sort of polyrhythm in my understanding. I suppose it's not as simple like this, though the form is very strict. I would like to learn the form well, but the folkloric aspect somewhat bothers me. However, when the compas is well driven by the singer and guitar, and the dancers nice to watch, it can be really hot.



Mecmachin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2022 20:29:09
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 577
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RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

played in 3/4 and sung partially in 2/4


Thanks yeah thats what I understand. I spent years a bit confused how guitarists (in 2s) sometimes felt it different to dancers (in 3s). I have to admit to being a bit lazy about learning them as its not my favourite style.

Then I found some singers who definetly stamp their foot in 3s a play it great... So I have been trying to play it that way but also learn the old solo material which I still feel fits a bit awkwardly against the 3s.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 12:51:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis

Anyone know why these Juan Martin Sevillanas pieces are often played with a two feel?

I have been trying to play Sevillanas with what I think is the correct Fandangos 3 feel but these seem to lean towards a 2 feel (like this guys foot).




First of all, Juan martin did not write them. I assume this guy learned them from his book or something. These are based on sung melodies. The Phrygian one at least is based on the Corraleras you can see in the Saura movie, and to my ear the melody is based on the Solea or bambera….in other words very old and related to flamenco. Last, the guy playing guitar in the video is tapping his foot half time, which rides along with the synchopated melody. I would say it shows a fundamental misunderstanding or misreading of the true underlying compas feeling (Juan Martin is not Spanish as everyone knows 😂). But as I hope you realize, if you are playing with a metronome the half time feel fits mathematically just fine against the normal tempo feel. Tapping the foot to half notes in other words, should not disturb the quarter note of other people. The problem this guy will have is synchronizing his playing with dancers that feel it differently. I simply teach my students to accent that melody in 3’s which helps lock in the compas. The true issue is using the foot on the half-note versus the dotted half-note for the same music…which should inform of the internal feeling difference.

For the record half-time does not = two’s….and many people use that description for some bizarre reason, for Bulerias as well. The foot tap is still in 3, it is just that there are THREE foot taps every TWO measures, rather than ONE foot tap every THREE beats. So 3x2 vs 2x3. The magic number there is 6. So the various ways the rhythm of 6’s work is the issue.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 12:54:20
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 577
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to johnnefastis

Ah amazing insights thanks Ricado. I wont use 2s to describe it anymore. But yeah basically I am trying to stop myself feeling it like that at all and just get the 3 feeling really ingrained.

Where I am in the UK, people people play a mixture of these and then some Paco Pena ones and some of the ones on the Paco de Lucia los Mejores Guitarras.

I was wondering if these Juan Martin ones are more awkward to feel in threes and to be avoided! I always wondered whether he took the cante melody or did he just get them off an old guitar record.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 13:08:22
 
JasonM

Posts: 1804
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

I was wondering if these Juan Martin ones are more awkward to feel in threes and to be avoided!


I learned these Juan Martin “taught” Coplas and tapped my foot in 2s, then I learned the same/similar coplas from Ricardo and learned to feel it in 3s. Changed my life! At least in dance class. Had to break the old habit but the coplas he taught made it easier.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 17:20:20
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 577
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to johnnefastis

Oh thats good to hear Jason, Glad its not only me.... I am going to bash them out to a compas loop like this one that is really stongly 3s and stamp my foot along until I can happily turn the backing track off.



Would love to see a video of you playing them. Its hard to find the right ones... El Cobre is too hard for me, Moraito's one seems too confusing for a lot of dancers so I think I am kind of stuck with the oldies unless I learn to sing :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 17:49:34
 
kitarist

Posts: 1454
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

(Juan Martin is not Spanish as everyone knows 😂)


I don't get this (I mean, he is Spanish, right?). Is it an insider joke of some sort?

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 18:29:05
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1762
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to kitarist

quote:

I don't get this (I mean, he is Spanish, right?). Is it an insider joke of some sort?


From his Wikipedia Talk Page, now removed:

quote:

Hi All I was very interested in that blanked discussion of Juan Martín’s nationality. I was at school with him 1959-61, we were both boarders at The Grammar School, Midhurst, West Sussex, England. Ukbn2 had a couple of points wrong, but his basic assertion was correct. Juan’s name then was John Newman not John Martin and he came from Shoreham in Sussex not Brighton. When I knew him he had no trace of a Spanish accent. I do not know where he was born and so cannot rule out some Spanish ancestry: but if there was some I was not aware of it. John Newman was frequently in trouble for going without permission to the nearby town of Chichester in order to take flamenco guitar lessons. Another ex-schoolmate, Jerry Fox, used to go with him. John’s main aim at the time was to get to Spain in order to learn flamenco guitar properly, and this he evidently did after he left Midhurst at the age of about 16. Ukbn2 is right that Juan Martín’s Sussex background is common knowledge in that part of the world. A number of people have mentioned it to me. None of this detracts in any way from the fact that he is a very fine guitarist.

Vennfam, 18 May 2007


I believe he does in fact have one Spanish parent.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 18:46:27
 
kitarist

Posts: 1454
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to Paul Magnussen

Thank you, Paul!

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 18:56:56
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1153
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to kitarist

quote:

I don't get this (I mean, he is Spanish, right?). Is it an insider joke of some sort?

I read somewhere on the foro that he is from Gibraltar.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 19:10:53
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to kitarist

quote:

quote:

(Juan Martin is not Spanish as everyone knows 😂)


I don't get this (I mean, he is Spanish, right?). Is it an insider joke of some sort?


Some years ago I asked on here if anyone knew for sure whether JM was Spanish or otherwise as I had been told by several people he wasn't. Some flame-war pile-on type interactions ensued, some folks here were very upset at the suggestion, and people I know were accused of lying, etc. etc.

Curiously, neither his wiki page, nor his own website actually states his place of birth, which every (other) flamenco artist biog always does....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 19:38:18
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

First of all, Juan martin did not write them. I assume this guy learned them from his book or something. These are based on sung melodies.


I think the major key one is a song about a woman who marries a dwarf and on their wedding night the bed is too high and he can't "get up" (I guess the pun on "get up" and "get it up" works in Spanish but I don't have the letra or title to look it up). It was recorded multiple times as a guitar solo by Mario Escudero. Here is one:



The Phrygian one (more or less same melody) was sung on the 1966 LP El Sali And His Ballet Espagnol – Flamenco! with Paco Peña on guitar. The track mixes sung coplas with guitar solo coplas (2 of each). I can upload it if anyone interested.

EDIT: the major key one also recorded by Pepe Martinez here at 21:30



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 19:46:19
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 577
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

It was recorded multiple times as a guitar solo by Mario Escudero.


Wow thanks Mark. I ashamed to say I had not heard that before and 1st and 3rd are the ones I hear all the time ha ha.

Hope you are well! I was thinking how I hadn't seen you on here for ages.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 20:18:42
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to johnnefastis

just logged back in for the first time in ages

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 20:43:35
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1153
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Juan Martin is not Spanish as everyone knows 😂

Who cares whether he's spanish or not? Juan Martin is a legend. So is Grisha.



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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 21:59:33
 
kitarist

Posts: 1454
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to mark indigo

Thank you, Mark!

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2022 22:04:53
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to Paul Magnussen

does anyone have a first edition of Donn Pohren's "Lives and Legends of Flamenco"?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2022 14:18:50
 
Johnc

Posts: 113
Joined: Apr. 16 2011
From: UK

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to Paul Magnussen

his wiki page says he was raised in malaga and was playing guitar from the age of 6
esflamenco.com says his name is Juan Cristobal Martin born in Malaga 1948
progarchives says hes Juan Cristobal Martin born in malaga 1948
allmusic says hes a native of andalucia
etc etc

the only place I have ever heard suggesting he's not spanish is this forum.
of course none of these are actual proof hes spanish english or anything else

not that it matters
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2022 15:18:04
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to mark indigo

quote:


does anyone have a first edition of Donn Pohren's "Lives and Legends of Flamenco"?


I have one dated Madrid 1988. Looks like a first edition.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2022 16:40:50
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to Johnc

quote:

the only place I have ever heard suggesting he's not spanish is this forum.


I believe Paul was quoting wikipedia.

I heard it from several people who knew JM on the London flamenco scene before he was famous, and came here to "check", as I find the whole scenario utterly bizarre!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2022 16:42:33
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to Morante

quote:

I have one dated Madrid 1988. Looks like a first edition.


I think the first edition was 1964, and apparently (I haven't seen it) JM is listed....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2022 16:43:39
 
kitarist

Posts: 1454
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

does anyone have a first edition of Donn Pohren's "Lives and Legends of Flamenco"?


I do. From 1964. What am I looking up? JM is not listed in the index.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2022 17:22:15
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to Johnc

quote:

not that it matters


Correct. I met him when he played in Ireland: buena persona, he even let me play his DeVoe, the best example I have ever played. He could be Chinese for all that it matters
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2022 17:49:45
 
Piwin

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Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Sevillanas felt in 2s (in reply to Johnc

You're all wrong. Jean Martin is French.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2022 19:25:48
 
Erik van Goch

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2022 22:08:36
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