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Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

Practicing- 

Hi All,

I am pretty dedicated to practicing...How did any accomplish player on this forum become great.

I have read some old threads where some say they don't practice technique...They just learn compas and falsetta's that have the technique they need to use.

So, this is my practice schedule:

Warm up:

Scales: Major, Chromatic - Practice them at 72 bpm at 8th note.
Rasguado: Triplets PAI, AI, AMII slow for 1 minute each
Alzapua: 40bpm triplet cause I just started learning this one...

I don't practice arpeggios too much because I get enough practice in the falsetta's I have learned.

I am good at amii, but, PAI and A.I still need little improvement...

My point is after all the warmup practice, I start working on all compas and falsetta's I have learned..

I will just practice staight up compas and play that 5 x times each...Then I break down on my falsetta's and practice everything slow 5 x times each...Even though I can play them a decent speed, I still make mistakes now then and want to practice clean.

I guess, I am wondering if all the accomplished guitarist practice more techniques before they learned to really play.

Thanks,
Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 15:33:01
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist


... And I will monitor this thread just to see who responded and by that token considers oneself accomplished (this little note from does not count)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 16:19:17
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

nd I will monitor this thread just to see who responded and by that token considers oneself accomplished (this little note from does not count)


Ok, so maybe accomplished is harsh word, but, it was not meant to be...There are many here on the forum who can play at a intermediate to professional level..

That is what I meant....Everyone is welcomed to reply....

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 16:56:53
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

You can always use bits and pieces from your falsetas and turn them into technical exercises. But whether you're using separate exercises or your falsetas, I think you need more than just trying to get through the falseta from A to B to really develop technique. But that's just me.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 16:58:18
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

This makes sense Piwin.

I just want to play good enuff to express myself and maybe to some more videos to share with all of you...

I know it i is impossible to say I want to play like Ricardo, Jason McGuire, and many others...But, just to be good enuff to share....

The funny thing is i am able to copy from youtube...slow the video down and learn but, I am just wondering if really learning technique is better....

Thanks again,
Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 17:37:06
 
kitarist

 

Posts: 1304
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Sep. 15 2021 18:59:27
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 18:13:22
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

I am going to edit and delete this statement....As I didn't know he was not respected on this forum and did research....Ok!

I just would love advise on how to practice..

Thanks,
Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 18:32:55
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

Just deleted the statement and would love to keep the practice perspective...

Thanks,
Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 18:34:21
 
kitarist

Posts: 1304
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

Sure thing, deleted mine in response.

To contribute to the discussion at hand, I have to ask you to clarify what you mean by learning 'technique'. I take it to mean ability to execute as intended stroke(s) with full control of the outcome. From that understanding, my answer would be you absolutely need to improve your technique to be able to play well enough so that you enjoy musically what comes out.

I personally tend to go on a problem solving cycle - diagnose, from playing pieces or falsetas I like, where my technique is still deficient. Then clean up just these few notes or in addition design a technical exercise away from the specific falseta to work on improving that bit of technique (both actions qualify as 'technique exercises' in my book). Eventually, when it is ingrained, I try it back as part of the original falseta/piece. On to the next thing.

Sometimes the problem is more fundamental - this would be when a separate technical exercise or two seem especially useful; it also may be spilling into multiple facets of technique. I guess this means, from that definition, I take technique to be necessary (but not sufficient) for achieving joy in playing your favourite music well.

[How you practice matters regardless of what you practice - I think it has to be with a goal in mind and relevant to that specific goal, done typically slow enough so no mistakes are practiced, and constantly in analytic mode to pick up what additionally may be gong right or wrong and explore options for adjustment and improvement.]

However, if by practicing technique you mean some mindless technique exercise repetition without paying attention to any the above, I'd agree it is likely not benefiting you much.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 19:39:53
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

Thanks for the response Kitarist!

I just feel like i just keep practicing the same compas and falsetta's over and over...SLOW...and at times when played up to speed (which I can easily do) make errors! Not a lot, but, I can't understand why they are not without them! You would think by practicing slow I would make no mistakes at all..

I am sure I am being hard on myself....The ultimate goal for me is to play good without errors....

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 19:50:49
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

So, I found some really nice technique exercises I can add to my practice...

I am sure all of you are familiar with Atrafana Flamenco Website....

These will compliment along with Compas & Falsetta's I have learned...

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 22:03:41
 
kitarist

Posts: 1304
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Astrafana


BTW it's Atrafana - which is his surname (Anafarta) backwards which is how I know you spelled it wrong

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 22:49:22
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

BTW it's Atrafana - which is his surname (Anafarta) backwards


Oops, misspell...LOL Thanks for the info

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2021 23:11:37
 
JasonM

Posts: 1701
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

I just feel like i just keep practicing the same compas and falsetta's over and over...SLOW...and at times when played up to speed (which I can easily do) make errors! Not a lot, but, I can't understand why they are not without them! You would think by practicing slow I would make no mistakes at all..


Story if my life. But there is the philosophy that it’s better to practice the Falseta at the faster tempo once you have it down slow, but work on the problem spots in chunks at the faster tempo - as long as your doing the right thing. Otherwise your just training to play it slow if that makes sense.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2021 1:10:32
 
kitarist

Posts: 1304
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Otherwise your just training to play it slow if that makes sens


I should clarify that 'slow[er]' for me generally just means to increase the time between successive strokes - all else (stroke itself and the prep for before and after) is done at normal speed. So I am not practicing slow-motion strokes or slow-motion prep with 'slow practice'. Of course, it depends a bit - if the problem is in the prep or transitions with LH or RH, I would do it carefully to see where it goes wrong and find a solution and slowly get it up to speed.

To Kalo - I think you might have to examine a video of yourself to be able to see exactly what happens and where in the piece errors occur even at slow speed. In that sense the process is the same - doesn't matter what the absolute speed is, I'd try to find why and how to fix it.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2021 2:34:52
 
chester

Posts: 830
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

Full disclosure I don't practice much nowadays. My technique is decent (after many years of arduous practice ) . Nowhere near Ricardo or Jason McGuire, but I can make some decent music. Sometimes I do find myself "catching a bug" for something a little more difficult so here's what I do (roughly)

Play it, does it sound good?
If not, why not?
If it's memorizing where your fingers need to go, play it over and over slowly. Your fingers will eventually remember where to go.
If it's a phrasing/articulation thing, change those.
If it's a technical issue, break it down and practice the techniques (picado/alzapua/left hand shifting/etc).

Learning how/what to practice can be a lifelong endeavor.
You're already on the right track just by asking yourself how you can do it better so keep the faith!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2021 3:41:11
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

Well, that solea you uploaded some time ago was good and your playing was nice and clean, so whatever you were doing to get to that level worked.

quote:

You would think by practicing slow I would make no mistakes at all..


Maybe try practising with a larger variety of tempos? Slow practice is great, but it doesn't cover everything. One thing I've found is that if you play above the tempo you're aiming for, you might struggle as you're pushing yourself a bit past the edge of what you can really control, but then when you go back down to the normal tempo it will feel easier. So dunno, if your falseta is supposed to be played at 90 bpm, maybe try playing it at 100 bpm once in a while, and then go back down to 90. Just an idea.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2021 4:55:43
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Piwin

Hi,

I took a look at your solea upload and sounds just fine to me. Looks to me just keep doing what you do and it is all about investing time in your practice.

Regarding practice speeds - well you will never be a fast runner if you only walk slowly, so yes there is a balance between fast and slow practice, and everyone finds their own ratio.

Take a look at this video, Grisha discusses exactly that.
https://youtu.be/tVp_XJ0rV9U

Now what made a whole lot of difference for me is try and pre-plant everything as much as I can. Meaning if you play slowly, say a picado section, you pluck a note and as fast as you can you prepare another. That preparation happens very fast regardless of slow tempo. You can not preplant rasgeuados but you can preplant what happens right after rasgeuado. That approach makes everything more stable.

Just my 2c.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2021 12:47:08
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

Wow, so many great responses!!! I am been reading each response slowly!!!

I am embarrassed to admit this, but, when I practice, I look at my hands in the mirror. .I also do practice at different tempos...I guess all this just takes time...I will watch Grisha's video that zendalex pointed too.

Any how, all these great responses! Thanks to you all!!

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2021 15:26:56
 
kitarist

Posts: 1304
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

when I practice, I look at my hands in the mirror. .


I do the same - it is a great tool for instant feedback.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2021 17:36:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13007
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaloguitarist

Thanks for the response Kitarist!

I just feel like i just keep practicing the same compas and falsetta's over and over...SLOW...and at times when played up to speed (which I can easily do) make errors! Not a lot, but, I can't understand why they are not without them! You would think by practicing slow I would make no mistakes at all..

I am sure I am being hard on myself....The ultimate goal for me is to play good without errors....

Kalo


Practice makes PERMINANT, not perfect. So if you practice slow with no mistakes, all you are doing is mastering the slow tempo. In order to play something at the correct tempo, you need to practice at THAT exact tempo. I would admit that there are ranges where the feeling is pretty similar. For example you want to play a tango at 160, practicing at 150 range will get you there, but 100 will not. If you feel 100 is NOT achievable even, you need to start a phrase at 150 right away, and loop it small bits, like two beats at a time looped, fixing the errors each pass until you do it many many times in a row perfectly, then add the next two beats or so. I am sure you have seen this video but it is basically how I think all falsetas or compas phrases should be learned. This is not a prepared video, you are watching me actually learn and master the thing.



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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2021 20:56:40
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Practice makes PERMINANT, not perfect. So if you practice slow with no mistakes, all you are doing is mastering the slow tempo. In order to play something at the correct tempo, you need to practice at THAT exact tempo. I would admit that there are ranges where the feeling is pretty similar. For example you want to play a tango at 160, practicing at 150 range will get you there, but 100 will not. If you feel 100 is NOT achievable even, you need to start a phrase at 150 right away, and loop it small bits, like two beats at a time looped, fixing the errors each pass until you do it many many times in a row perfectly, then add the next two beats or so. I am sure you have seen this video but it is basically how I think all falsetas or compas phrases should be learned. This is not a prepared video, you are watching me actually learn and master the thing.


OMG!!!!! Seriously, THANK YOU!!! I did not know this....I was always told from my blues and rock years to play SLOW all the time to reach the high speeds...

Ricardo, I am a believer what you are saying because your video demonstrates this....

So, the question I am now going to ask is....Is the practice slow a MYTH???

Also, does this apply with picado and other techinques or just compas and falsetta...

Thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2021 21:57:12
 
Brendan

Posts: 245
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

Wow this was six years ago:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=277957&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=tips&tmode=&smode=&s=#278009

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2021 23:55:01
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Wow this was six years ago:


Eh, maybe, but not all of it...LOL

I did read the link you provided...Some good tips...

Maybe, I should not get hung up on how to practice.

I will just be playing for myself, as I would NOT play flamenco for family, or friends. As for gigging...Americans do not care about it.

Maybe, I can post more utube videos of my progress....

Anyhow to everyone who replied, I didn't know this was "six years ago" or I wouldn't have posted the questions, LOL, but, to all that replied, THANK YOU for answering!

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 1:12:28
 
Stu

Posts: 1923
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

Hey Kalo,
I don't think Brendan meant anything unplaesant by his comment and accompanying link.

Probably just wanted to share those tips with you. and was then was shocked to see it was 6 years ago. ya know..time flies etc.

Although that list doesn't really address your queary of specific practics procedures and routines.

Don't not post questions!! every question has been asked here about 100 times anyway. but that's how it works.

Searching for old stuff is ok but I find re reading any posts on any forum from 5/10/15 years ago somewhat unsatisfying and almost a bit off putting. Always better to have fresh insight, interaction etc

There's always new intel on practicing and technique. Depends who's about at the time to reply.

Ricardos 'Practice makes Permanent' bit blew my mind when I first heard it.
I like that video very much too! always nice to see it.
But he's clearly not practicng his spelling of permanent.... or maybe he is and that error has become permanent? don't tell me that was deliberate to highlight your own point Ricardo? ...was it? hahaha

The practice tip/idea I always remember above all others was about moving the stress up and down the fingers of an arpeggio or tremolo etc. guess it helps train control or strength or some such. (cant recall who told me this)

So 4 strokes in a sequence, count in fives, stress on the 1 count
Pami, pAmi, paMi, pamI, pami, Pami, pAmi....and so on.
(Capital letter is the stressed stroke)

if theres five strokes, count 6s
if theres six strokes, count 7s.

or ...count one less than the number of strokes so the stress moves backwards.

This helped me incredibly with controlling my fingers and can be applied to all techniques.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 12:16:24
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

quote:

Hey Kalo,
I don't think Brendan meant anything unplaesant by his comment and accompanying link.

Probably just wanted to share those tips with you. and was then was shocked to see it was 6 years ago. ya know..time flies etc.


No, worries, I totally understand....

There is a lot of information that I am sure I missed out on because I was not on this forum...

I will try to search for the Practice Makes Permanent by Ricardo...

And, thank you so much for the input!

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 14:56:29
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

quote:

So 4 strokes in a sequence, count in fives, stress on the 1 count
Pami, pAmi, paMi, pamI, pami, Pami, pAmi....and so on.


This idea works for pretty much practicing anything.
Particular with picado sections we can choose to emphasize a particular note that seems wobbly. What helps me a lot recently is playing at fast speeds (as opposed to always slow) and make strong accents on strong bits. Another interesting thing Grisha explained to me that with some passages of picados when say the original scale rhythm is 4/4 you change it and play 3/4 (i.e. emphasizing each 3rd note, and you can have exactly 3 different notes in the beginning that you can choose to as first accent, so you have 3 ways to play this). What happens is that you would be accenting some notes you never accented before.

It is just a feature of our brain to not keep track of notes which are not accented. So unless we are conscious about it - they tend to not come very clean if not practiced properly (at least in my case).

So another 2c, also leveraging Grisha's know-how.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 15:27:29
 
Kaloguitarist

 

Posts: 109
Joined: May 12 2020
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

You know so often our ego's try to say to us we don't need a teacher and well, I think the best thing to do is set up some lesson with Ricardo.

I hope he doesn't mind that I am saying this...All the awesome advise you all have given is wonderful...

But, I am so scared that I have learned bad habits or having guidance can at least help along the journey...

My goal is to come home after a **** day at work and play good enough to feel like I am making some type of progress.....

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 17:11:30
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 555
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Kaloguitarist

I always enjoy this subject. These videos are great if you havent watched already.





  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 17:47:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13007
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practicing- (in reply to Stu

quote:

But he's clearly not practicng his spelling of permanent.... or maybe he is and that error has become permanent? don't tell me that was deliberate to highlight your own point Ricardo? ...was it? hahaha


Good point. The spell Cheque auto correct always suggests words, and many are things I have misspelled in the past, such as the all uppercase PERMINANT instead of permanent. Don’t let it happen to your “practicng” if it bothers you

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2021 18:15:36
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