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RE: Can a white man play the blues?   You are logged in as Guest
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Morante

 

Posts: 1934
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to etta

quote:

Today I enjoy both, but I will never be seen as "authentic" as a flamenco player by critical players. But, music, first and foremost is about enjoyment regardless of how authentic or proficient one is.


¡Olé! I can´t really play any style of guitar, but I always remember a night at the bar of the Peña de la Perla when Angel Pastor (sobrino primo de Ajujetas) was singing tangos, surrounded by primos, with a a guitarrista de Cádiz. The primos were calling him out for lack of compás (this is a general form of desprecio). Angel called me from the bar and told me to play. The guitarrist went to the bar in a huff. I said "Angel, you know I am not a good tocaor." He replied "Tócame por seguiriyas". So I began to accompany one of my favourite cantaores and the primos called "¡Ole! la guitarra gitana!" This is probably the greatest compliment I have ever received in flamenco. You don´t have to be good to know where to find the essencia.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2021 16:14:30
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1189
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to tf10music

All english speaking authors copy each other leading to the same result. I believe any research on this topic is a dead end. The fact is there is a lack of evidence backing up both hypothesis. You guys stick to your story and I stick to my story.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2021 19:27:10
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 107
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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

All english speaking authors copy each other leading to the same result. I believe any research on this topic is a dead end. The fact is there is a lack of evidence backing up both hypothesis. You guys stick to your story and I stick to my story.


I'm not drawing from English-language sources. The three sources I drew from were Cristina Cruces Roldán, who does original anthropological and ethnomusicological research in Spanish, Lope de Vega, who was a literal honest-to-god Spanish playwright and who should really need no introduction, and Richard Pym, whose book is written in English, but draws on medieval and early modern Spanish archival records, census records and court records that nobody else has written about in any language.

You are drawing on your feeling that a particular narrative is true, without any evidence to support it.

You are right that there is no definitive evidence available, but most of historical study is about putting the puzzle pieces together and settling on the most likely explanation based on a number of social, political and circumstantial factors. The explanation that you want to be true is not the most likely one, based on every available indication.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2021 19:39:29
 
estebanana

Posts: 8555
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Morante

I’ve seen this myself in person more than once, a member of the Agujeta family ( whom I’ll not name) sang with compas that raised eyebrows as it went out. But no one would criticize out loud for fear of getting the consequences.
It’s kind of known they are better at cante that can have an elastic compas, so sigiuriyas is a natural, and they sing it well.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2021 0:59:54
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3246
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

Can a black man play Bach?


I would say so, yes. He did a good job of it when he played here in Austin.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2021 4:23:26
 
estebanana

Posts: 8555
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

That guy is a monster player, I mean for a non flamenco guitarist. Lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2021 4:37:34
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1189
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to etta

quote:

The point is that the facility of both my hands, and perhaps my brain, was improved by the banjo which enabled me to return to the Flamenco guitar after over forty years of leaving it. Today I enjoy both, but I will never be seen as "authentic" as a flamenco player by critical players.

As long as you don't anchor with your little finger on the soundboard, there's nothing standing in the way of you becoming an authentic flamenco guitar player.


Back to the question Can a white man play the blues?

To me, the question whether a white man can sing the blues or not would be more interesting.
My answer is yes and no. It depends. Of course white western men or women with their 1st world problems can't sing blues or flamenco. Even if they have the voice and technique.
To be able to express pain and sorrow cathartically, you've got to have experienced it and felt it in your bones. Being told or hearing it 1000 times won't be enough.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2021 14:59:59
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Of course white western men or women with their 1st world problems can't sing blues or flamenco.


Wow, very deep there, white people can’t feel pain because they don’t have problems. Glad we can tell all this information from skin color.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2021 16:21:25
 
etta

 

Posts: 325
Joined: Jan. 20 2010
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Morante

Would anyone here suggest that Grisha cannot play "flamenco"????
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2021 16:43:40
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3359
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Of course white western men or women with their 1st world problems can't sing blues or flamenco. Even if they have the voice and technique.


Oh horror of horrors! The Voice of Authority has decreed that even with a voice and technique, we Westerners who are melanin-deprived can't sing blues or flamenco.

Would the Voice of Authority, then, decree that blacks cannot play Bach?

It is truly amazing that at this moment, when attempts are being made to look beyond race and skin color, the Voice of Authority decrees that melanin matters after all.

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2021 17:08:05
 
Mark2

Posts: 1734
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to agujetas

Copyist? I would never apply that term to a musician. For that matter, playing music as written, or copying someone's music, is usually more difficult than playing original music. As an artist SRV was very derivative IMO. Prince too(James Brown and Jimi), but that doesn't mean they didn't have tons of talent.



quote:

ORIGINAL: agujetas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2
When I hear Stevie, I hear lots of Albert and Jimi. I just don't hear a lot of Stevie.


Stevie and his big brother grew up in Fort Worth. Somewhere I read or heard that as teenagers they spent a lot of time copying Albert King records.

RNJ


Albert’s influence is clear in virtually every single note SRV played. However, I think Stevie put his own personality into it - he wasn’t a mere copyist. You can see the mutual respect between the two in this video. I don’t think Albert would have acted like that if he thought Stevie was ripping him off. Also, blues is similar to flamenco in the sense that everyone learns by copying the great players that came before them.

https://youtu.be/4-apz26BfHY
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2021 18:56:50
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Piwin

quote:


From the same book:

"That they were called Germans, may be accounted for, either by the supposition that their generic name of Rommany was misunderstood and mispronounced by the Spaniards amongst whom they came, or from the fact of their having passed through Germany in their way to the south, and bearing passports and letters of safety from the various German states. The title of Flemings, by which at the present day they are known in various parts of Spain, would probably never have been bestowed upon them but from the circumstance of their having been designated or believed to be Germans,—as German and Fleming are considered by the ignorant as synonymous terms."


Excellent. I forgot to do a word search for flem*

But here is another recent article that I'd really like if you can take a look at, Piwin, because the guy is a linguist. I wasn't really sold on his arguments about an undocumented Calo word which morphed into the existing 'flamenco' word. Maybe I am wrong and the linguistic argument is quite strong (?)

The article is Sayers, W. (2007). Spanish flamenco: Origin, loan translation, and in-and out-group evolution (Romani, Caló, Castilian). Romance Notes, 48(1), 13-22. (It can be read online for free at https://www.jstor.org/stable/90011890 with a free JSTOR account.)

Sayers does provide a summary of the most viable hypotheses, first making sure to dismiss the ‘fellah mencus’ stuff as not being one of them.

The article beginning:





And the ending paragraph:




And from the middle:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (3)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 0:52:09
 
estebanana

Posts: 8555
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to devilhand

You have a lot of strange rules.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 1:04:14
 
estebanana

Posts: 8555
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to etta

quote:

Would anyone here suggest that Grisha cannot play "flamenco"????


I’ll take this one on. In a definition of flamenco as cante, no he’s not really a flamenco guitarist, he’s A guitarist. There are those who define flamenco as understanding and being able to sing the cante and the guitar comes second as an ornament. This has been a structural argument in flamenco I’ve witnessed dozens of times given by Spanish people who know about flamenco.

But if you’re good, there’s no shame in being a guitarist.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 1:10:09
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Talking in arabic and using a word felah mengu, which was pronounced and written as flamenco

Can you confirm your sources for pronunciation?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 2:50:17
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to kitarist

I recommend Steingress, who talks about the reception history of Demofilo, Schuchardt, Mairena, and also discusses the possible etymology of "flamenco." I, for one, think that there is much more moorish influence hidden by the transculturation process.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 3:01:28
 
Auda

 

Posts: 222
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Mark2

quote:

For that matter, playing music as written, or copying someone's music, is usually more difficult than playing original music. As an artist SRV was very derivative IMO. Prince too(James Brown and Jimi), but that doesn't mean they didn't have tons of talent.


I would agree about copying someone's music. Anybody who can copy the nuance of a piece note for note is highly skilled. Wish I could do it though I try my best.

I saw Prince get up on the stage one night in a dive bar and play some solo blues on the electric guitar - no singing. His music is not my cup of tea but he was amazing that night.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 15:08:44
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1934
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I’ll take this one on. In a definition of flamenco as cante, no he’s not really a flamenco guitarist, he’s A guitarist.


It is my understanding that Grisha also knows how to accompany. This makes him flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 16:46:59
 
agujetas

 

Posts: 60
Joined: Mar. 9 2021
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

Would anyone here suggest that Grisha cannot play "flamenco"????


I’ll take this one on. In a definition of flamenco as cante, no he’s not really a flamenco guitarist, he’s A guitarist. There are those who define flamenco as understanding and being able to sing the cante and the guitar comes second as an ornament. This has been a structural argument in flamenco I’ve witnessed dozens of times given by Spanish people who know about flamenco.

But if you’re good, there’s no shame in being a guitarist.


That may explain the origins of flamenco (understanding and being able to sing the cante) but to claim that that is what flamenco is now, and only that, would be a very strange view. IMO.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 17:25:04
 
estebanana

Posts: 8555
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to agujetas

Well, that’s the deal. Solo guitar is a thing, but flamenco is cante. Or a way of being. Everything else is technical expertise. I know y’all love to make exceptions for your favorite people who shred, but it’s a narrow art. And I’m very narrow in my judgment of what is and what’s not flamenco. But it’s my judgment and that’s final for me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 17:37:25
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Morante

quote:


 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana) 

quote:

I’ll take this one on. In a definition of flamenco as cante, no he’s not really a flamenco guitarist, he’s A guitarist.


It is my understanding that Grisha also knows how to accompany. This makes him flamenco.



Seriously? You of all people should know better than to speak on ‘it’s my understanding’ you know what proof means.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 17:40:07
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:


 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana) 

quote:

I’ll take this one on. In a definition of flamenco as cante, no he’s not really a flamenco guitarist, he’s A guitarist.


It is my understanding that Grisha also knows how to accompany. This makes him flamenco.



Seriously? You of all people should know better than to speak on ‘it’s my understanding’ you know what proof means.


He accompanied a singer in Juerga ... rather he and I together. He was not lost, he knew exactly what was going on. Not sure how much about cante he actually knows but he certainly enjoys it like any aficionado. Don’t know whether or not he has accompanied dancers. He chooses to be a “solista” which has a negative connotation in the flamenco world, because a flamenco guitarist SHOULD choose to be an accompanist first and foremost and the refusal to do so is nothing to be proud of. In the end I would consider him a professional “solista” which implies “flamenco guitar solo player”. Other “solistas” are Paco Peña, Carlos Montoya, Juan Serrano, Adam del Monte etc etc. Paco de Lucia proved himself but chose the same route in the 70s in terms of public performance. Paco Cepero went that way in 2000’s. Now Antonio Rey is doing it. So Grisha is in good company IMO. To say he is “not a flamenco” instead of saying he “is a solista”, I think is going one step further than necessary to be disrespectful to the guy as an artist.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 18:24:06
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1765
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Other “solistas” are Paco Peña […]


I believe most of Paco’s appearances for the last couple of decades have been with his dance troupe: the last time I saw him in a solo concert was at the QEH in 2001.

(I’m not say he doesn’t play some solos in between ensemble performances.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 18:47:37
 
Piwin

Posts: 3451
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to kitarist

Short answer: just put it in the pile with all the other maybes. "Flamenco" is to etymology what "copla" is to flamenco. Just put anything you want in it. ^^

Caveats first: I'm not an etymologist and I'm just reacting after a first reading of the article.

I'd be curious to know what these "linguistic grounds" for readily dismissing "fellah mengus" are. I don't know what those could be. Perhaps comparative cases where they see that words with that kind of ending went from Arabic to Spanish but ended up with different kinds of ending than -enco? Dunno. To me the case against it was more on historical grounds than on linguistic ones. I'm careful with the "linguistic grounds" argument, because the literature is ripe with examples of scholars saying "X can't happen because Y", only to be shown a few years later that it actually can, and did, happen.

Ultimately his thesis has the same problem as all the others: there is no shortage of etymologies that make perfect sense linguistically, and since the word seemingly pops out of nowhere, then we're left speculating about undocumented words and how they may or may not have evolved.

Since he's relating it to germanía, I'll say this: there's plenty of scholarship that relates that term to the Catalan germá (brothers), and not to the German ethnonym. There are plenty of historical occurrences of that term, probably the most famous of which is the rebellion of the Germanías in Valencia. The term goes back to the Latin germanus, meaning brothers (which gave us words like germain in French or germane in English). The Latin for German seems to have been a loan word taken from some Northern tribes and bears no connection to the Latin word for brothers.

Point being that there's a sort of consistency in all of these theories, that if they opt for one particular origin of the word "flamenco", they're going to also reach pre-defined conclusions on the origin of other words. So if you think "flamenco" comes from the Flemish ethnonym, you're likely to gloss over the possible Catalan origin of Germanía and instead see it as rooted in the German ethnonym, exactly like Borrows did. It sometimes leads to very bizarre conclusions. Like, for instance, this idea that the "Roman de Flamenca" somehow had some connection to Flemings because skin colour. I guess, but man that's a stretch. The book predates the political presence of Flemings in Southern Europe by several centuries, yet we are somehow to believe that it was already a term used to describe people of fair skin based on the Flemish ethnonym.

Similarly, this article says that the fla- of flamma was retained in certain Andalusian dialects, whereas in most Castilian dialects it shifted to lla-, which he then uses to explain why the pha- of phabarel turned into fla-. OK, fair enough. But fla- was also retained in Catalan, both North and South, and it also has the advantage of neatly explaining the -enc suffix (with quite a few examples of -enc words turning into -enco/-enca in Castilian). The point isn't to say he's necessarily wrong. It's just to point out that there's a sort of consistency in what possibilities they dismiss. Meaning that since he dismisses Catalan influence out of hand, then of course Germanía to him can't possibly come from Catalan either, despite strong evidence to the contrary. I'd be really funny if that origin of the word flamenco turned out to be true. Unlikely, but man I'd love to see that revenge of the rumberos moment lol ^^

Related to that, footnote 20 is rather telling. Since he's making a case for this kind of encrypted "secret" language, he cites somebody saying that distorting "a foreign language's name" is common in such languages. I guess, and I don't know about the other examples he cites, but to relate the French "Bohémiens" to cryptic slang is AFAIK incorrect. There was nothing cryptic about that, it wasn't some kind of in-group signal. It followed the exact same rationale as "Gypsies": namely, people thought these Roma came from those regions, i.e. Bohemia in the case of "Bohémiens" and Egypt in the case of "Gypsies", and that's it. So yeah, just a tendency to gloss over certain things and overgeneralise in a way that would support his own argument.

Anyway, I'm not dismissing his theory more than any other. Ultimately its value is that it opens up new possibilities that can then be refined, but as is it's not particularly convincing to me, nor does it seem to me to be more plausible than other theories.

Dunno. As long as there's this lack of documentation, I think a lot of that work of refinement will have to be less about "flamenco" per se and more about clarifying other terms. For instance, if I really wanted to put an Occitan/Catalan origin to rest, it would be helpful if they could explain why the Kalderash of pelota land called their Southern brethren "red-legs" (I forget the exact word but that's what it translates to). There's no morphological or etymological connection to "flamenco" there at all. As you know, Basque is a language isolate. But for some reason there's that colour again, which would also be involved in a Romance origin of the term. I guess in a way it means trying to chip away at the number of unrelated coincidences there would be for any given etymology of the term. And what I'm seeing is that many of these scholars are very good at multiplying the coincidences, but not so good at reducing their numbers.

edit: also, Grisha is flamenco, and estebanana's mother was a hamster and his father smelled of elderberries. ^^

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2021 19:54:32
 
estebanana

Posts: 8555
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

. He chooses to be a “solista” which has a negative connotation in the flamenco world, because a flamenco guitarist SHOULD choose to be an accompanist first and foremost and the refusal to do so is nothing to be proud of. In the end I would consider him a professional “solista” which implies “flamenco guitar solo player”.


You get to bend it both ways, because it’s not that big of a deal. But you know that accompaniment comes at a higher priority and that all the concertistas you mentioned were knowledgeable about accompanying. And the two The big Paco was a master. And the Dutch Paco sends all the graduates to Spain to continue their education.

If someone is an accompanist they can do the juerga solo without help, and they can go on an on until the sun comes up. I know you guys are being polite, but you know exactly what I mean about the difference. A flamenco guitarist can hold the singers together and keep them singing for hours without assistance, or the singers just go palo seco. The flamenco guitarist is the one who can sit across the mature singer on stage and hold down the performance. Soloists cannot do that.

There’s a clear distinction between the two tight rope acts.

Piwin’s mother has a bigger penis than Vladimir Putin

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2021 2:17:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 8555
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Piwin

Just a caveat ~ I’m not an entomologist



quote:


Short answer: just put it in the pile with all the other maybes. "Flamenco" is to etymology what "copla" is to flamenco. Just put anything you want in it. ^^

Caveats first: I'm not an etymologist and I'm just reacting after a first reading of the article.

I'd be curious to know what these "linguistic grounds" for readily dismissing "fellah mengus" are. I don't know what those could be. Perhaps comparative cases where they see that words with that kind of ending went from Arabic to Spanish but ended up with different



Occams Razor -
What’s most probable when the facts are assembled is probably the reason-

There already existed a word in common usage by the late 18th century, the term Flamenco meant that which is derived from Flanders ( Ned Flanders from the Simpsons? ) and the concept that Felu- mengu us a grouping of phonemes that we can’t be sure of in terms of origin; and accuracy of how those phonemes were gleaned from Arabic.

Occams Razor #2

That Arabic is so present in modern Spanish and the word flamenco is so common indicates that if there was a root word in Arabic that flamenco is extracted from, modern Arabicists would very likely know the sister word in Arabic.

When it comes down to equal speculation as to a northern or southern origin of the word flamenco, the northern hypothesis already contains the exact word and it’s not obscure, it’s common and is used in several ways. It means Gitano Rom people in Spain who make flamenco music and it means items or people from Flanders. It also has a connotation of wild behavior as when Spanish parents tell children to behave and “ not act flamenco “

In Japanese there is a similar reprimand, parents say “ don’t be Yankee!” And I’ve heard Spanish parents say that as well. Also in Japan to say someone is ‘ Yankee’ is to label them a bit low life or socially rebellious. So it is in the nature of the way we use language to adopt regional or words that describe a group of people and use that as a label for another group, as a description of their behavior in our eyes.

We take attributes in culture and behavior of one group and use our own evaluations of that group, very much a linguistic stereotyping, and overlay that on another culture to emphasize a line of behavioral traits that we see. Our perceptions can be racist, true or untrue, or partially correct, but it’s a way of labeling and creating a euphemism that describes our relationship with a culture.

Then it gets interesting, the labeled social group that is being ostracized by a dominant group calling it names becomes self aware of the epithet and adopts it as a point of cultural pride in defense of the dominant group.

An example of this is how Trump voters called themselves “deplorables” because the news media misrepresented a speech given by an opposition politician. The transcript says clearly that the vast majority of people are not deplorable, but that there was a subgroup of people that were perpetrators of deplorable behavior on gay women.

In the end the subgroup the opposition politician was speaking of proved to be deplorable. Some Japanese kids prove to be Yankee and some Spanish kids prove to be Flamenco, but all for the reason of labeling a behavior that a dominant group finds deplorable.

Flamenco from the north is the most open path to a reason why flamenco is called flamenco and in light of the dearth of real hard core linguistic evidence in a field with a lot of researchers... lots of Arabists, very little hard evidence. Prado museum uses the word flamenco as a matter of course.

Occam’s razor

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2021 2:54:36
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Short answer: just put it in the pile with all the other maybes. "Flamenco" is to etymology what "copla" is to flamenco. Just put anything you want in it. ^^


Thank you for the detailed analysis! (not quoted) So I gather I didn't miss or misinterpret some devastating argument when reading it

The one thing that remains for me as a new stable fact, not speculation, is that in 1836-1839 there was a gypsy song containing the phrase "Flamenca de Roma(*)'; the word 'flamenca' in that clearly referring to a gypsy/Roma woman and not to a Flemish person. I think that by itself is quite amazing. How it came about is another matter, as we see still open to hypothesizing.

(*) It occured to me that the fact that a gypsy song says 'flamenca de Roma' rather than just 'flamenca' - i.e. that the gypsy cantaor/author felt the need to specify which type of flamenco person - may be an indication that the time frame 1836-39 is very close to when this meaning first emerged (hence the need to clarify which one of the two uses is employed).

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2021 3:08:35
 
Piwin

Posts: 3451
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana

Gillette's Razor:
no matter how much you shave down there, my mother's will still be bigger than yours.


(man, I need to make a rule that if I'm up between the hours of 4 and 6 am, I really shouldn't post anything online )

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2021 3:19:59
 
estebanana

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RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Gillette's Razor:
no matter how much you shave down there, my mother's will still be bigger than yours.


Touché’

Or as they say in Arabic, Toumegu Shavu!

But really you mothers penis is so huge that I’d be well endowed to play second fiddle to her.

Translation into American dialect:

Yo mamma gotta big mushroom, but I got halfa dat and hafa dat is twice more than she wants.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2021 4:21:18
 
Piwin

Posts: 3451
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Can a white man play the blues? (in reply to estebanana

That shiit-take on my mother's mushroom just shows spore judgment. Admit it, you blewit. All fungicide, your stinkhorn couldn't handle her bearded hedgehog.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2021 5:23:49
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