RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries: anti-gypsy measures, privileges, and a confluence of circumstances

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvir, Philip John Lee and Craig Eros who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: << < 10 11 12 13 [14]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to kitarist)

Fandangos comes from America! But not the copla…that is the blues…

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2022 15:01:33

kitarist

Posts: 1441
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Faustino presents his book tonight and in media hora I shall be on my way to hear him.

How was it?

_____________________________

Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2022 17:44:58

Morante

Posts: 1893
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

How was it?

Hola

Typical Faustino, at least I have my copy signed

He has nothing against gitanos and took time to praise Mairena.

His idea is that the cultural soup from which emerged flamenco should recognize the enormous influence which the discovery of America had on Spain in general and Andalucía in particular.

His book has a diagram of how he thinks the palos developed. I would like to post a foto but it is across 2 pages which distorts the lines. I have never had success in posting fotos here but I sent a copy to Ricardo by Whatsapp. His opinion should be interesting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2022 19:01:17

tf10music

Posts: 104
Joined: Jan. 3 2017

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

His idea is that the cultural soup from which emerged flamenco should recognize the enormous influence which the discovery of America had on Spain in general and Andalucía in particular.

I'll have to get a hold of the book myself, but this is a rather uncontroversial claim, as far as I can tell. The 'discovery' of America had massive impacts on Gitano life as well, and the exchange of people, goods and cultures between 'old' and 'new' worlds generated spaces of mestizaje that helped to shape flamenco. Antonio Mandly argues something like this as well, though with less of a focus on the Americas themselves and more of an emphasis on the mestizaje.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2022 5:04:21

Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

How was it?

Hola

Typical Faustino, at least I have my copy signed He has nothing against gitanos and took time to praise Mairena.

His idea is that the cultural soup from which emerged flamenco should recognize the enormous influence which the discovery of America had on Spain in general and Andalucía in particular.

His book has a diagram of how he thinks the palos developed. I would like to post a foto but it is across 2 pages which distorts the lines. I have never had success in posting fotos here but I sent a copy to Ricardo by Whatsapp. His opinion should be interesting.

Can not say agree with the conclusions but since Morante was kind enough to share, here is the chart of speculative palo connections :

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2022 13:14:53

Morante

Posts: 1893
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Ricardo)

Muchas gracias, Maestro.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2022 16:17:49

kitarist

Posts: 1441
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Ricardo)

Hmm, what's 'Tango Americano' doing there at the beginning of the 19th century; this makes no sense - neither timing nor musical ancestry. Unless 'tango Americano' means to Nunez something completely different from what I am thinking.

_____________________________

Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2022 19:16:05

Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

Hmm, what's 'Tango Americano' doing there at the beginning of the 19th century; this makes no sense - neither timing nor musical ancestry. Unless 'tango Americano' means to Nunez something completely different from what I am thinking.

Referring probably to African communities in South America…and an interesting word association: Tango=Tambo

From wiki:

quote:

Rodríguez Molas cita una denuncia de 1789, realizada por Manuel Warnes (entonces funcionario del cabildo de Buenos Aires), en la que se usa la palabra "tango" para referirse a las reuniones bailables de los esclavos:

No permitan semejantes bailes y juntas las del tango, porque en ellas no se trata sino del robo y de la intranquilidad para vivir los negros con libertad y sacudir el yugo de la esclavitud.1618
En Montevideo, en aquella época, la palabra "tango" se utilizaba con un significado similar. El musicólogo uruguayo Lauro Ayestarán citaba en su fundacional obra La música del Uruguay la resolución del Cabildo de Montevideo del 26 de septiembre de 1807 dictada con acuerdo del gobernador Francisco Javier de Elio:

Sobre tambos, bailes de negros. Que respecto a los bailes de negros, son por todos motivos perjudiciales se prohivan absolutamente, dentro y fuera de la Ciudad, y que se imponga al que contrabenga el castigo de un mes á las obras públicas.
Resolución del Cabildo de Montevideo
de común acuerdo con el gobernador Francisco Javier Elío del 26 de septiembre de 180719

For the record Tiento is an older term, I think equivalent of “prelude” in 1500’s. Check out Antonio Cabezon etc.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 29 2022 16:40:02

kitarist

Posts: 1441
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

Hmm, what's 'Tango Americano' doing there at the beginning of the 19th century; this makes no sense - neither timing nor musical ancestry. Unless 'tango Americano' means to Nunez something completely different from what I am thinking.

Referring probably to African communities in South America…and an interesting word association: Tango=Tambo

From wiki:

quote:

Rodríguez Molas cita una denuncia de 1789, realizada por Manuel Warnes (entonces funcionario del cabildo de Buenos Aires), en la que se usa la palabra "tango" para referirse a las reuniones bailables de los esclavos:

No permitan semejantes bailes y juntas las del tango, porque en ellas no se trata sino del robo y de la intranquilidad para vivir los negros con libertad y sacudir el yugo de la esclavitud.1618
En Montevideo, en aquella época, la palabra "tango" se utilizaba con un significado similar. El musicólogo uruguayo Lauro Ayestarán citaba en su fundacional obra La música del Uruguay la resolución del Cabildo de Montevideo del 26 de septiembre de 1807 dictada con acuerdo del gobernador Francisco Javier de Elio:

Sobre tambos, bailes de negros. Que respecto a los bailes de negros, son por todos motivos perjudiciales se prohivan absolutamente, dentro y fuera de la Ciudad, y que se imponga al que contrabenga el castigo de un mes á las obras públicas.
Resolución del Cabildo de Montevideo
de común acuerdo con el gobernador Francisco Javier Elío del 26 de septiembre de 180719

Thanks. Yeah, this above is about the possible origin of the word though (to label something taking shape almost a century later). I don't see the musical connection to tanguillo. Word associations are very weak evidence of anything, if evidence at all, as you know from the linguistic arguments for this or that flamenco palo that ignore musical clues.

Also, 'African tango', sure (percussion-based; tambo is a drum), but to call that, at the end of the 1700s, 'Tango Americano' (Tango Argentino by another name a century later) seems ambitious. Add to that that before the 1920s the rhythmic and ostinato elements of the music of 'tango' were very different. Both pre- and post- are nothing like a tanguillo, though. I can see the rhythmic connection of tanguillo to cocoye, I guess.

_____________________________

Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 29 2022 17:16:26

Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

I don't see the musical connection to tanguillo. Word associations are very weak evidence of anything, if evidence at all, as you know from the linguistic arguments for this or that flamenco palo that ignore musical clues.

Preaching to choir here….but in his chart he has the arrows colored inferring either compas (reds pinks etc) and tonality (blue purple) and in this case the only arrow I think is red…so he is talking about 6/8 I think. Calling it “Americano” is probably the fact this African thing forms in the Americas through the 1800’s (afrorioplatense Antiguo), only to disguinguish it from SPANISH Tango, not “seen” until later.

He is operating as most flamencologists do …. Superficial musical/dance similarities as clues surrounding the song titles.

Fandango and the blues have the same chord progression.

. I still love that one. (Faustino video at 1:20:00)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 29 2022 17:36:02

Steelhead

Posts: 88
Joined: Nov. 20 2014

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Ricardo)

There are references to "tango americano" and "tango negro" from 1799 in Spain. But a problem I have with the flamencologists who repeat that the flamenco tango came from an Afro-Cuban namesake is that there is no evidence that "tango" ever denoted a specific musical genre in Cuba. E.g., Pichardo's 1836 Cuban dictionary defines it as a "gathering of bozal negros to dance to drums and other instruments." So maybe some costumbrista Cádiz Carnival groups did what they called tango, to some duple-metered songs, with the familiar contradanza/"habanera" rhythm, then it went to the zarzuelas etc... Even then, it has always been my humble opinion that the flamenco tango is so different--in rhythm, tonality, melodies, vocal style etc... from anything in Cuba that it is a bit of a stretch to call it a cante de ida y vuelta. Faustino has the opposite interpretation, i.e., "It's totally Cuban, except for the rhythm, the tonality, the melodies, the style..." (Cf, "Life of Brian": "The Romans have been here in Palestine for a century and what have they given us? NOTHING!, except for the aqueduct, schools, legal system, law and order, currency, trade networks...")

_____________________________

Steelhead

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2022 13:31:10

Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Steelhead)

Agreed to the above. The only thing, at a glance, I am sort of ok with is while Faustino has the Red line (compas) pointing from Tanguillo to Tientos (and tangos), he also has the purple line (tonality) pointing from Soleá to Tientos. So keeping the idea of compas and tonality separate is actually a good thing in my experience because that is how we treat flamenco today. We decouple the two concepts so that we can do interesting things like Fandango por Soleá or Granaina por bulerias…or even the darn basic dance form called “Taranto” which is an umbrella title for a big mixture of these ideas. I am also ok with the idea Compas elements come from African and American sources. To me the MAIN compas element every flamencologists over looks is REMATE/CIERRE. Only they care about patterns which certainly appear in those other music forms. But the Remate thing comes from phrasing…and the phrasing comes from the FORMAL STRUCTURE of the Soleá and related forms (cadential answers to the cante).

More than just the tonality (he pretends there are 4 tonalities when actually there are only 3, but I get that some forms are ambiguous trapped between two worlds), the Soleá and many styles of Tientos share FORMAL STRUCTURE. I mean the harmonies, and letras are the same, phrasing and cadence, tessitura of the melodies etc. Buleria por Solea also works as Tientos if you give it the Compas treatment of 4/4 (both larga and corta styles, and even the derivatives like Sordo la Luz, from Norman’s site, based on the Solers/Mairena categorizations). But this formal structure transports not only from Soleá to Buleria but also to TANGOS. And we see in Faustino’s chart, there is a huge disconnect between Tientos and Tangos (WTF?). In fact the compas lines coming OUT of Tientos move to Farruca etc…sorry those SHOULD be Tangos lines, Tangos de Malaga etc.

So his chart diagram looks more like those serial killer charts the FBI use trying to piece together the killer’s identity and central location. It is all over the place with some things that make sense and many others that are plain crazy.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2022 14:38:34

Steelhead

Posts: 88
Joined: Nov. 20 2014

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Ricardo)

Good, right.

_____________________________

Steelhead

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2022 14:49:20

Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Steelhead)

Along these lines of researching origin melodies and such, I wondered if you guys have opinions on this:

The tiny section of music in question is 13:00-14:00 of this performance (she conveniently left out this link in her description):

So my question is, in interpreting evidence like this, how “close” does the music need to be to be considered the “source” or origin material. To me in context of the entire Arabic piece…this tiny portion or fragment certainly resembles the Spain anthem…however the section itself is based on what I call a melodic sequence. The sequence is triplet based (similar to Gaspar Sanz type stuff meaning GEG,FDF,ECE,DBG…etc) but galloping in 4. So is the Spain thing only similar because it used the same type of sequence, and the rhythm makes it coincidental, or would you guys think that taken TOGETHER, it is not a coincidence and probably the basis?

Here is also Spain anthem:

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2022 15:07:05

kitarist

Posts: 1441
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The tiny section of music in question is 13:00-14:00 of this performance (she conveniently left out this link in her description)

Yup, and the vague conspiratorial posturing (putting 'official version of the history' in air quotes), etc. Grrr.

This type of evidence is to me of much lower value than other types. It is always about showing similarities in some sequences. That's still on the level of coincidence especially when given stripped of context (as you point out the entire piece she forgot to link to). One needs more than that to demonstrate intent/agency and causality.

Looks like Bárbara Arredondo, a musician (soprano) and a musicologist with degrees in music and art history and another in voice and presently completing her Doctoral studies, should be quaking in her boots - she just published this book in 2020:

"Entre pitos y flautas: El músico Manuel de Espinosa y su legado (1730-1810).: Historia de la Marcha Real Española."

https://www.amazon.com/-/en/B%C3%A1rbara-Arredondo/dp/B084NXDK9B

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2022 20:04:31

devilhand

Posts: 1136
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

(Still not clear why 'Flemish', though).

The following is taken from spanish wikipedia translated into english using google translator. Maybe this will give some new insights.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%BAd#El_la%C3%BAd_renacentista

During the Renaissance the lute enjoyed great popularity among the European nobility. However, in Spain the leading role of the lute was replaced in courtly music by vihuela. Although there is a theory that the lute was not played in Spain due to prejudice, remembering the Muslim instrument from which it came.
This is not true. Numerous documentary sources can be found such as cargo inventories on the ships that traveled to America etc., where many lutes are numbered, which at the time were known as "vihuelas de flandes".

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2022 19:53:56

kitarist

Posts: 1441
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Gitanos in XVI-XVIIIth centuries... (in reply to kitarist)

Ricardo sent me recently this claim about the origins of calling our flamenco 'flamenco', i.e. Flemish, which he had found in an old magazine - in Guitar Review 43, 1978. Both of us had never heard this claim before - a claim why flamenco singers are called flamenco connecting it to some notes in written 16th century Spanish music.

I was curious to find what primary source(s) this refers to, if any, what is the actual original claim(s) and what is interpretation, and its veracity, from a 2022 point of view. The findings will be presented in my next post.