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RE: Who out there learns entire PDL pieces ?   You are logged in as Guest
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BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

I just wish this foro becomes more active on fb. B/c who the heck uses PCs these days. Pretty much why I dont go here that often 😕


I use a PC and have never had and don't want a Facebook account. Perfectly happy.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2021 18:22:36
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2202
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

B/c who the heck uses PCs these days.


I do. But no Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc. I know my life cannot be private but I can avoid it being very public. These apps pass your personal info between them and use it for commercial purposes.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2021 18:29:22
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Morante

quote:

I do. But no Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc. I know my life cannot be private but I can avoid it being very public. These apps pass your personal info between them and use it for commercial purposes.


I just love people who complain about the US government and corporations collecting personal information while laying out the most intimate details of their lives on so-called "social media" such as Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc. They are not serious people. Moreover, many who use these platforms are nothing more than exhibitionists who think the details of their lives are what keeps the earth rotating on its axis.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2021 18:50:17
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

I use a PC and have never had and don't want a Facebook account. Perfectly happy.


I wouldnt expect any other from regulars of this forum :)). I dont care personally about fb, but I care to have an easy to type and see interface. (On my mobile everything looks so tiny that it is unusable). Not that I would ever volunteer to make one (just away from my line of work). Many other places are compatible with tapatalk app, that one is rather nice - but not the foro flamenco. Wondering what would it take to make it compatible.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2021 18:50:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14914
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

I follow that group for some time. A lot of activity there and easy to follow as fb notifies. I just wish this foro becomes more active on fb. B/c who the heck uses PCs these days. Pretty much why I dont go here that often 😕


I refuse to type all the crap I do here, with one finger.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2021 20:41:28
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

refuse to type all the crap I do here, with one finger

I kinda noticed :) you never reply on anything on fb. Wondering if its just unworthy me.

But seriously, note there are people who are active on fb who never post here, and the other way around. I just wish we had a platform that everybody is comfortable. Whatever number of fingers they use.. and I sure mean rasgueados.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2021 5:11:49
 
joevidetto

 

Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

If we consider Paco the teacher that we follow and learn from, well, he is teaching us something different by demonstration. The advanced players get it and so you will NOT be finding what you are after because it is considered “wrong”.


Ricardo knows I respect much of what he says and his playing ability - maybe even his sometimes cocky attitude : )

I found this comment interesting, especially given that he is clearly one of our 'advanced' players. ...I'm not sure what he thought I was after. But I found the "wrong" comment interesting because he seems to agree with that viewpoint, and yet from this post it sounds like he has and continues to play Paco's pieces - which would be "wrong". Perhaps he changes all of them to make them "his own" ? Or maybe he is admitting that he is also doing it "wrong" ?

quote:


Guajiras
Tempul
Panaderos
Mantilla de Feria
Fiesta en Moguer
Punta del Faro
Entre dos Aguas
Plaza Alta (long long long time ago)
Friday Night in Sanfrancisco (all)
Chanela
Passion Grace and Fire (All)
La Barrosa (long long time ago as well)
Zyryab
Cancion de Amor
Letter from India
Cardeosa

I have performed all that stuff in recent years except for plaza Alta and La barrosa, but bulerias I usually do a historical mixture from old to new material. Sadly I have not had much practice time on those during pandemic.
quote:



I will say I get the underlying message of the "wrong" comment - if you want to acutally be a musician, there is an entirely different skillset and area of the brain you must develop that can NOT be done by learning and playing pieces note for note. I've accepted that I'm more of a hobbyist playback analyzing type - I don't have an available group or motivation to become a real 'flamenco'...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2021 12:45:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14914
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

and yet from this post it sounds like he has and continues to play Paco's pieces -


Right, but your question and my response was regarding, specifically, modern bulerias post 1980. The older pieces have been in my rep for a long time because, in that regard, I approach it as the “student” much like Paco himself did back in his teens and twenties. He recorded the N. Ricardo piece in 1971. I didn’t start learning flamenco until I was in my 20’s so I have worked on complete “pieces” well into my 40’s. But the truth is, most of the repertoire (not the rumbas which are open ended improvisation geared tunes that function on my gigs with my group) on the list was learned because I had to learn it note for note in order to teach my students. In the case of Fiesta en Moguer, the fandango I made a tutorial of, I had at first intended to only do a falseta or two, but I got really into “fixing” the score compas wise, so I ended up going through the entire piece.

My main point is that the REASON you don’t find what you are looking for in abundance on youtube or wherever, is because PDL himself treats Buleria in particular on a falseta by falseta basis, and those that follow him try to do the same. See Samuelito’s excellent take on Paco’s modern material, he does a great job of doing it like Paco wants us to do it, even though it is all note for note paco, he has mixed and matched the ones he enjoys. That is the beauty of flamenco vs classical guitar in all honestly. I am always stealing Bach falsetas for example and no classical student would ever do that. It is the “flamenco” thing to do.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2021 19:55:55
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

I am actually wondering ultimately why this question at all. If you enjoy a piece and would like to learn the whole of it - who is to tell you otherwise? Or the other way around - if you just like single falseta, why not just learn it and move on? Seems you are a hobbyist, same as me, then everything you do in this regard should bring you joy. For your progress it doesnt really matter if you play a complete piece or combine falsetas and make your own arrangement, i.e. same as Paco did. What matters is whether you can play each individual falseta in compas, whether you know how to tastefully arrange various falsetas and how to intermingle them with nice paseos/rhythmic sections.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2021 14:58:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14914
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

I am actually wondering ultimately why this question at all. If you enjoy a piece and would like to learn the whole of it - who is to tell you otherwise? Or the other way around


The issue has been discussed often, however I feel this time Joe was frustrated, or simply taking notice of the lack of note for note versions of PDL modern buleria rep. To be clear, paco himself would make special arrangements toward the end since he had previously fell into a trap of omitting or repeating falsetas when improvising on the bulerias structure. Actually it is a shame his last live album 2010 does not contain the excellent 10 min buleria solo he was doing at the time…. I personally feel it was the culmination of his life’s work in that form and it covered so much more ground than his previous live versions. On my playlist I grabbed the audio from Germany and inserted it into the album, it actually fits perfect in the program.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2021 16:35:51
 
joevidetto

 

Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Ricardo

Ahh - it really doesn't matter in the end.

My ear hears some really different things going on in the later PDL material - as Ricardo mentioned, a lot of is rhythmic, but the playing is also a bit sparser. Also, the chords he uses - my ear never seems to recognize any of them.

For me - the best way to understand what is going on is to SEE somebody play it as I hear it and see the fingers of both hands.

My feeling is that the reason more people aren't playing more of his later pieces note for note is that - it is just too freakin' hard, demanding, complicated....not saying there aren't players out there who can't do this. But if they are out there - I doubt there are many of them.

Also - I know our Foro has some excellent players - hence the question directly to all of you.

Now - had I phrased the question differently - for example:

How many falstetas have you learned from Paco's Solo Quiero Caminar album onward - we never would have worried about the 'whole piece' thing.

Also - to see if complexity and learning curve is the issue - I think the following would be a more interesting, revealing question:

How many of the PDL bulerias falsettas that you have learned come from PDL albums BEFORE Solo Quiero Caminar, vs AFTER it ?

Or would some Foro members out there think this question controversial and irrelevant also ? ....I'm sure some would....now that I've been here a while lol
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2021 20:12:46
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

Seems like many people here at least play La Barrosa which happens to be recorded in Siroco, which was recorded after Solo Quiero caminar.

I also happen to practice Grisha's version of Montino which is from Solo Quiero and Gloria which is in Siroco. (Not that it is yet at the level that I can perform this on stage, but I keep trying :) ).

I dunno, I find all Paco's music equally challenging. Just every piece in its own way.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2021 22:33:14
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to BarkellWH

I made it through Reflejo de luna completly and enjoy to play it at about half speed as it still sounds nice. Doing the same with Fuente now. Other than that its falsettas for me.

I organised a day workshop with John Walsh a few years ago where he went through most of Rio De La Miel. It was exhausting and I still feel the guilt of not having put the time in to study it yet. He amazing and plays some complete pieces and can pull them off with a crowd, but not sure if there videos of them.

Enjoyed your playing Alex! great work...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2021 23:41:03
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

I made it through Reflejo de luna completly and enjoy to play it at about half speed as it still sounds nice. Doing the same with Fuente now. Other than that its falsettas for me.

I organised a day workshop with John Walsh a few years ago where he went through most of Rio De La Miel. It was exhausting and I still feel the guilt of not having put the time in to study it yet. He amazing and plays some complete pieces and can pull them off with a crowd, but not sure if there videos of them.

Enjoyed your playing Alex! great work...


Thank for the feedback! I learned my first falseta well in my 30's - as you can imagine how hard it is for me to really go through this stuff, my hands do feel quite old for this complex techiniques.

Something I wanted to mention is that playing slow is probably is the key to everything. Unfortunately it takes so long - you need enough time budget. Say practicing properly a single Paco's piece can take well an hour of time. Say you split it in falsetas and play each half (or even slower) speed 10 times or so. From what I know from Grisha - he plays Montino on stage at 170 bpm (original speed), while he would slow it down to 75bpm when practicing. Even with all his ability he still spends time on slow practice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2021 12:55:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14914
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

How many of the PDL bulerias falsettas that you have learned come from PDL albums BEFORE Solo Quiero Caminar, vs AFTER it ?


Most people gravitate to the Fuente y caudal period. I have a lot from punta del Faro and el tempul from a little before that time. I teach 3 modern falsetas in the Paco Tutorial 3 and 4. One of my friends said, regarding those two tutorials “what’s the point? Nobody can play that except for some guys that don’t need your tutorial”. But then juan on the foro learned and uploaded one of them

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=300929&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=paco%2Ctutorial&tmode=&smode=&s=#300929

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2021 13:40:46
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

Thank for the feedback! I learned my first falseta well in my 30's


Wow even more impressed now ha ha. I thought your hands looked good and relaxed like a seasoned rumba player.

Personally I try to learn falsettas that would work in the mix of playing in a Pena or with some people in Spain and would be buzzing if I pulled them off without screwing up too bad. So I would gravitate to the more traditional material... buleria por medio rather than Eb for example. But there are nuggets like this thoughout his catalague. As Ricardo said anyone who can play entire later pieces convicingly is probably writing there own material.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2021 17:46:24
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I teach 3 modern falsetas in the Paco Tutorial 3 and 4. One of my friends said, regarding those two tutorials “what’s the point? Nobody can play that except for some guys that don’t need your tutorial”. But then juan on the foro learned and uploaded one of them


that is almost a call for a challenge. Now who is in?

Oh wow, I see I am missing a lot by not coming to this resource often. If not much trouble could you post links to the full set of these tutorials? I am a bit bad navigating the topics here.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2021 18:59:31
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to BarkellWH

I was gonna say I am up for a challenge but man these look tough.

I would have a go at the first part of Paco tutorial 4 but then it gets into the I could never play that out of the house territory ha ha.



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2021 21:58:07
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

have a go at the first part of Paco tutorial 4


Why not, lets do the 4th? Weekend is coming, hope to go through it. I have recently mostly learned from watching others play. More info that way than when using tab. Also sticks longer and trains the ear. Amazing slow downer software is my best friend these days, especially after the mobile version was developed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2021 11:42:40
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to BarkellWH

Cool I would be up for doing the first one from Fantasia. The compadres one sounds long and difficult and would take me years to get comfortable, but sure it would be a great learning experience.

shall we set up a new thread and for the challenge? See who else is up for it. It’s been years since there has been one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2021 18:28:22
 
zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

shall we set up a new thread and for the challenge? See who else is up for it. It’s been years since there has been one


Yeah, sounds exciting!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2021 2:58:56
 
joevidetto

 

Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

The compadres one sounds long and difficult and would take me years to get comfortable


IMHO - the compadres falseta is not on my favorites list, and is not as appealing as other falsetas in Paco's later reportoire. It is not easy to hum, the rhythm is syncopated to the point of 'disturbing' for a non-musician, and it is so different that it wouldn't really 'fit together' with other falsetas that one might perform out. All of this my personal opinion.

No doubt - there is a LOT one can learn from it - maybe some bits and pieces to put in another falseta, some interesting harmonic ideas, some great left and right hand techiques...but for my time I would pick something that is - IMHO, more 'useable'.

Then again - I don't play out - my preferences are 'theoretical' lol

Ricardo - why of all falsetas did you pick this one ? I'm guessing either you really just love it for the challenge, or a student asked you to help them with it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2021 16:48:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14914
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Who out there learns entire PDL ... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

Ricardo - why of all falsetas did you pick this one ?


I guess you didn’t go through the tutorial because that is all explained specifically. The timing is even related. Your opinion is your own to have but it is unfortunately preventing you from see the value in this specific case. I can only recommend you choose a falseta that appeals to you and try to learn from it.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2021 21:16:11
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