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Which medium helps you learn a new piece quicker and with better retention ?   You are logged in as Guest
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joevidetto

 

Posts: 91
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

Which medium helps you learn a new p... 

If you had to pick one of these, which helps you learn and play new piece quickly and with the best retention ?

1.) watching a video and playing along
(assuming you have a slow downer like Transcribe)

2.) reading musical notation only

3.) reading tab only

4.) Reading musicial notation with tab

5.) listening to the audio and figuring out the fingerings

Again - my post, so you have to pick only one and if you want, share why that method works best for you, personally.

Also, do you do anything mentally to help you remember all the parts and sequences of a piece ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2021 16:01:37
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

Well if you had to pick one, nothing beats video, because it has contains the most information of all the mediums. It is slower to transcribe notes of course, but I don’t have to worry about tab being wrong or missing info. The only tab that I ever trusted was Encuentro.

The only thing about using video from YouTube and such is that the audio might be ever so slightly out if sync, if you are trying to watch the right hand to see what string is being played in a fast passage. But if you can use you can parse those two bits separately in your head, it’s still good to have.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2021 17:00:19
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

6.) analysis

If you translate everything (tab, notation, ear, video) into numbers and you also have the ability to understand your fingerboard as numeric distances, there will be very little to memorize.

I have a hard time memorizing stuff that I attribute no musical meaning to. If when reading from a tab I encounter unfamiliar chords or scale fragments, I execute and listen to them. 9 out 10 times it's an inversion of something I am familiar with.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2021 17:47:27
 
Mark2

Posts: 1588
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

The more the better. The last piece I learned I used standard notation, audio, and video. I would have looked at a tab too if I had one. Notation alone can be difficult if you don't have he music in your head already.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2021 20:35:10
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

Sing it. Be able to “sing” the phrase, even if out of your range, just so your brain understands the exact phrasing and rhythm. Later you can apply the fingers from whatever source you have.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2021 20:57:51
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

The only way I can retain anything is to get it into my ear and the only way I seem to be able to do that is to loop phrases of audio.

I don't have the right tech to slow down and loop video efficiently so I do it with audio and refer to (original) video for fingerings, but I like to try to figure things out from audio before referring to video.

I think of cover version video same as tab/notes transcriptions - interpretations of the original audio/video recording, so only refer to these, if at all, last to "compare notes" with others' interpretations of the original.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2021 21:39:39
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

Thought this was about remembering how to execute... my bad.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2021 21:50:47
 
joevidetto

 

Posts: 91
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

Thought this was about remembering how to execute... my bad


I combined this into the thread - appreciate your input.

Everybody is at a different level musically, and everybody develops different ways of learning and memorizing.

Of course having all types of materials is best - the more different ways you come at the same information, the more it connects together and gels into your memory. My feeling is if you had to pick one, and you are an intermediate player or above (already have some knowledge of reading and analyzing) - then no doubt for me video with a slow-downer.

I use Transcribe - which does both audio and video, and for a guy whose "natural- genetic-musical-talent" I would rate as mild to moderate, with mediocre ear and moderate ability to find exact harmonies and really fast melodies on the fretboard - Transcribe is a game-changer. Without it, I couldn't have learned many of the things I wanted to.

In terms of learning quickly - nothing beats video. If you have developed sight reading to the point of fluency of "look and play" exactly what's there within a couple of hours, even a couple of days - for complicated PDL transcriptions, then you might make the case that the notation can be a great medium. Actually - if you can do this - please let me know. I might want to take some lessons from you : )

Also - it's a lofty term - but mirror neurons in the brain are incredibly important to learning new skills - and that requires visual information.

Finally - video is the closest thing to having a live human being teach you to do something the correct way. That's why the guys from Spainborn into a musical family are some of the best players. I recently discovered a bluegrass family I really enjoy watching - and I learned that they don't read music. IMHO - learning directly from others trumps everything else - except when it comes to sophisticated composition - then the theory is important - unless you are a prodigy that has practiced for 10's to 100's of thousands of hours - we don't have too many of those.

For flamenco at least - if you are at best a novice reader of notation - thing about how much brain energy goes into translating a note from the staff into the correct position and fingering on the guitar (and many times in flamenco transcriptions the fingerings are incorrect). When you learn directly from others teaching you - or the next best thing, from a video (that you can slow down) - ALL that 'conversion' brain energy goes into learning and memorizing the music and EXACTLY how to play it - which is really the end goal anyway.

So - instead of buying a Leiva book - I would gladly pay the cost of a book for a person that could show me even ONE of the more complicated post-Alomraima Paco pieces on a recorded video lesson, from beginning to end, within one to two guitar lessons. Flamenco guitar players haven't had enough time to learn and digest his "newer" stuff (which is already how many years old ?). Actually that's not entirely true - some play pieces from Zyrab and Solo Quiero...but Luzia and Cositas I think much less. Now the modern "older" stuff - we are all fortunate to have lots of players posting FREE videos with good shots of their hands. I wonder what it's like to be born into the age of having all of the current stuff we have today - at the age of 10 or 11. The learning process must be very different for these students than it was for me (at 54). - I paid a LOT of money in lessons, and it took me MANY years - just to play a FEW complete pieces from Paco's early reportoire (most from Fantasia, or Fuente). Granted Fauche has been around for years, but I needed far more face-to-face to learn flamenco techniques and theory before I could be productive with an audio and Fauche transcription. Now - at 54, having all these great resources, I'm hoping my learning can really accelerate - assuming I can stick with flamenco for a few years in a row. In the past - got incredibly frustrated at some points and went back to classic pop and rock.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2021 13:54:47
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

Again - my post, so you have to pick only one
- Ha haaa! It's like herding puppies!

I just listen really closely at 16rpm, remembering that it's an octave down...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2021 14:19:24
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 473
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

Video is best for me because it is more interactive, makes you think more about what you are playing and how, conveys rhythm and proper fingerings.
Tabs almost always have mistakes some horrendous and inaccuracies but are quick and dirty.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2021 16:42:45
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

everybody develops different ways of learning and memorizing.

I think it's probably a good idea to try to learn flamenco the "flamenco way", especially if you want to take lessons in Spain.


quote:

That's why the guys from Spain born into a musical family are some of the best players.

They are not "some of the best players", the are THE players.


quote:

IMHO - learning directly from others trumps everything else

agree (but you didn't give that as an option! )


quote:

- except when it comes to sophisticated composition - then the theory is important -

not so sure about that, flamenco guitarists, i.e. those "guys from Spain born into a musical family" seem to do just fine....


quote:

unless you are a prodigy that has practiced for 10's to 100's of thousands of hours - we don't have too many of those

like those "guys from Spain born into a musical family"?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2021 19:10:30
 
Piwin

Posts: 3164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

quicker and with better retention


Is that even possible? To me those two things are antinomic. If you want to retain long term, put in the time. If you want to learn fast, forget about long-term retention.

quote:

got incredibly frustrated at some points and went back to classic pop and rock


Probably a key point. Nowadays I use mostly audio and, if I'm so lucky, video. A few years ago I don't think I would've been in the right mindset to enjoy doing that, especially working through audio alone. And if I wasn't enjoying it, I just might have given up. So, dunno, pick the one(s) you actually enjoy doing?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2021 20:39:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which medium helps you learn a n... (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

For flamenco at least - if you are at best a novice reader of notation - thing about how much brain energy goes into translating a note from the staff into the correct position and fingering on the guitar (and many times in flamenco transcriptions the fingerings are incorrect). When you learn directly from others teaching you - or the next best thing, from a video (that you can slow down) - ALL that 'conversion' brain energy goes into learning and memorizing the music and EXACTLY how to play it - which is really the end goal anyway.


You seem to think each “piece” is like a brand new thing. There are structures and standard grips and devices that if learned via short simple falsetas, it becomes quite easy to learn new material quickly. You must have seen the video I posted about learning Tomatito falseta in 8 minutes. My example worked for that guy...but what you don’t realize is I made that video because of a challenge here on foro. The somebody was arguing about learning method, and I said “pick a falseta I don’t know”...he chose tomatito from encuentro...I got score, watched the video, sang along with it, read through the score to get the basic fingerings that I already saw on video....but my concern was mainly compas. I basically memorized the fingering from the book in a couple minutes then set out to actually “learn” it properly by chunking each beat...I keep the foot going and don’t add notes until I have two beats back to back felt correctly. I didn’t know how long it would take...so I filmed myself learning it. It happened to be 8 minutes. If you wanted an entire piece you have to multiply that process (30 minutes watching and getting fingering, 8 minutes to ingrain it) so say 40 minutes total, by the number of falsetas in the piece. Usually 5 or so.

But if you have not learned some basic grips and devices used in flamenco guitar, you can learn things wrong and then spend the rest of your life unlearning the bad habits. I think what is important is how to “practice”, not the media you think will magically make your life easy.

Here you can see how it played out with time stamps
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=136277&p=16&tmode=1&smode=1

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2021 0:21:25
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