Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira and Philip John Lee who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Learning: Concert Flamenco as differentiated from Flamenco Puro, the folkloric corpus   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 98
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

Learning: Concert Flamenco as differ... 

So, it occurs to me that the entire bad-blood discussion before was based upon a misunderstanding. We are actually talking about 2 different bodies of music with shared roots: Concert Flamenco, in which skilled players play complete compositions (own or other) vs the folkloric traditions of elaborating nuclear flamenco, as practiced for centuries and still today.

My questions were probably perceived as insulting Concert Flamenco, as in the performance of repertory pieces, vs the daily music of zillions of flamencos since the time of Las Cartas Marruecas, in which an idiomatic corpus is elaborated differently by different players. Corpus Flamencus is improvisatory within a structure.
Repertory music typically seeks fidelity to a notated or recorded piece that already exists. Palos and idiomatic public domain flamenco melodies/falsettas are more general purpose tools.

I did not invent this differentiation, Carlos Llave speaks of it here around 24:00 https://youtu.be/n7eDgi4QAJw?t=1450
(ask if you want translation to English)

Hopefully we can keep this polite and my skills or lack thereof don't become the subject matter.
A pen-and-paper only composer could still learn about and comprehend the structures and idioms. Surely Isaac Albéniz was doing exactly this in his Iberia suite. (absorbing some countryside air)


This is the essence of what I found strange: we simply are focusing on 2 different musical concepts using the same umbrella term "flamenco"


Nuclear Flamenco = palos, idiomatic falsettas, tecnicas.

A rough guide to the palos in 5 minutes or less, LOL
Edgar L Platon just outright says "each palo has it's secret codes, which if unlocked allow the artist to have a structure to interpret and improvise within"


the general outlay of some palos, the cliches, the general gist of them.

Carlos Llave master class: shows us characteristics and the palos of flamenco:


Chick Corea gives his perspective


to which one anonymous viewer comments:
'El Palo' en flamenco es como 'La Clave' ...
parece que primero hay que sentir El Palo y con este las cadencias armónicas vendrán a su tiempo...
si empezamos por la armonía e ignoramos 'los palos' , terminamos sonando 'payo' y 'cruzaos'

They suggest Pituqueta's channel (I like this channel. Very kind attitudes. He and his wife, who is a singer, both explain concepts nicely): ...

learn the basic solea


examples of showing harmonic structure


Accompany Singers:
here is a singer and tocaor working out basic bulerias interaction for us.

you need to fill the gaps when she needs to breathe, and give her space when she sings, of course! common sense i guess


IMPROVISACIÓN MODAL Y CONSTRUCCIÓN MELÓDICA FLAMENCO I
"modal improvisation and melodic construction in the flamenco environment"
Enrique Vargas
https://www.guitarrasdeluthier.com/es/p/libro-guitarra-teoria-flamenco-i/574

same author, transcribed PDL
https://www.elargonauta.com/libros/almoraima-de-paco-de-lucia/979-0-9013103-2-2/

DONNIER, Philippe. Flamenco. Relations temporelles et processus d'improvisation. Universidad de París X. París pro manuscrito, 1996, p. 87.
http://www.sudoc.abes.fr/cbs/xslt/DB=2.1//SRCH?IKT=12&TRM=043837247&COOKIE=U10178,Klecteurweb,D2.1,E67b46a16-75,I250,B341720009+,SY,QDEF,A%5C9008+1,,J,H2-26,,29,,34,,39,,44,,49-50,,53-78,,80-87,NLECTEUR+PSI,R46.50.2.115,FN


cross-cutting question that recurringly pops up: "what is your goal?"

cross-cutting opportunity that recurringly pops up: creativity. humans are not objective reproducers. "New" content is typically synthetic in some way.

example of jazz harmonic recontextualization etc


Rote Learning (vs note learning, and the former being easier to start children with, as no reading comprehension required)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_learning
vs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquiry-based_learning

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2021 13:42:56
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12573
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

each palo has it's secret codes, which if unlocked allow the artist to have a structure to interpret and improvise within"


Ok, you dumped a lot of stuff once again, and it’s not clear if you are looking for feedback or not regarding all this information you have come across. I will say two things.
1. Concert flamenco repertoire. Ok there exists a handful of pieces that were composed by proper flamenco maestros, and certainly borrow elements directly from palos, however don’t adhere to “palo structure”. They are normally not given a “palo name” the way most other flamenco guitar compositions are. Sometimes they might use the rhythm of buleria but are NOT the song form buleria, for example “vals buleria” and these types of things. When these pieces are interpreted note for note they are often correctly viewed the same way classical pieces are viewed. However it would be a mistake to assume that ALL flamenco guitar compositions that are played, either by the composer or others, such that all falsetas and strumming between follow the exact same sequence in every known version, should also be viewed as “classical type” pieces. The reason is simple. If the piece is based on a song form, then it remains in a state with a constant potential to be broken down or rearranged to taste with no damage done to the original “composition”. So I would have to say with the exception to the specific list of “classical style pieces”, that NO there is no such distinction to be made between “concert flamenco” and the folklife song and dance versions. There is only the “solo vs accompaniment” distinction to be made.

2. The quote above does get at the same confusions as previous discussions. The whole thing is about “IF UNLOCKED”....because the thing is, when you have unlocked it you realize there is no improvisation. Or rather your definition of improvisation needs to shift to “composition”. And if you understand improvisation as “composing on the fly”, then what is happening in flamenco is only “arranging what you have already composed, on the fly”. There will be the rare exceptions where mistakes and even deliberate, yet dangerous, attempts at “composing on the fly” ie IN COMPAS, will yield excellent results, but it is not what is generally done, and new comers to the genre should not be given the false impression that it IS what is going on most of the time.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2021 22:41:59
 
chester

Posts: 801
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

what is happening in flamenco is only “arranging what you have already composed, on the fly”.

This sounds like playing 'licks' no?

quote:

the rare exceptions where mistakes and even deliberate, yet dangerous, attempts at “composing on the fly” ie IN COMPAS, will yield excellent results

Dangerous? You mean it might sound bad? Nah man as long as you're staying loosely within the pocket half the audience won't notice

quote:

new comers to the genre should not be given the false impression that it IS what is going on most of the time.

Is it just my imagination or is there a subtle subtext to all these threads about improv that's essentially "don't expect to make something up out of nowhere and have it sound like (ie "be") flamenco"?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2021 4:09:50
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 98
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

Ok, you dumped a lot of stuff once again, and it’s not clear if you are looking for feedback or not regarding all this information you have come across.


Yes, and yes (feedback, reactions, additions) and I'm accepting your experience/expertise as I have learned several of your "common idiom" tutorials like "alzapua por solea" which is interesting and has a differing rhythmic emphasis than a similar one i picked-up somewhere "por media" instead of "por arriba" as most soleas seem to be.

perhaps YOU observed things over the years (and i'm not ignoring what you have already posted as i comb old threads here) and noted patterns of these idiomatic "things". Surely we all get that bassline melody most soleares have at some point, regardless of their arpeggiation particularities.

I think that such observations constitute a body of info that someone delving into idiomatic common flamenco generalities will want to know.
(observations, generalizations)

Application wise, let's see what folks one day do with the tools, and I'll not beat on this particular horse here (the possibilities of improvisation: the actuality of when/where it occurs within defined structures, etc), as I'm actually trying to collect this idiomatic tribal wisdom here.

Rob F. had asked on the forbidden thread if this was for an audience and I always think of posterity and the children as I'll be dead one day and life is short etc. We weren't all lucky enough to be born into flamenco families, so for better or worse, as Grisha pointed out so kindly, folks here share a love and passion for flamenco, regardless of the roles/levels engaged in.

(And Chester, I agree with you, as I know folks who improvise flamenco, but they also don't improvise all parts always, just as one can interleave secondary dominant chords in an existing progression, and how, in functional music, all chords are interleaved between this V-I movement, one can interleave improv into a given "timeslot" in a structured piece, as in Pachelbels Canon, etc. and I see folks elaborating melodic lines in realtime but the basic structure of the piece is keeping the same compas and cadence etc. they aren't just inventing 10 part polyphony in realtime, lol, but one line of melody spur of the moment is just like singing improv.

I also understand what Ricardo means in that I have like 10 different varatiations on Solea rolling around in my head and while I can combine them in any order at any time, working out a new one takes a little time and practice. The basic structure and harmonic movement (chord progression) is already there, and at least 4 of these Soleares are simply variations on arpeggiation patterns. I use my small finger also, and have worked out exercises and uses for it, where practical or for novelty, and I'm ok with non-idiomatic usage (I have a bluegrass version too, lol, as it reminds me of American country styles, in terms of the Am/CM/FM movement.)


anyway, here is the collection of idioms and wisdom and lore, and I bring no axes nor grinders.

To be clearer: interested in collecting idiomatic flamenco concepts and info.

(not so interested in discussing the distinctions between idiomatic/common-core flamenco and "solo compositions loosely based up palos" or however the preferred conceptual umbrella is termed, but if that's the feedback someone has, so be it.)

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2021 15:27:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12573
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to chester

quote:

Is it just my imagination or is there a subtle subtext to all these threads about improv that's essentially "don't expect to make something up out of nowhere and have it sound like (ie "be") flamenco"?


Nothing subtle about it. I love improvisation, and composing. When I do it in a proper flamenco context, I know darn well how to make it “sound flamenco” but the simple fact remains, when a flamenco player IS improvising on the fly, it is easy to tell, and not for “good” reasons. I will do it during say a long escobilla but that’s only because I am too lazy to prepare appropriate music for that section. Sure my improvisation might yield some good ideas for serious falsetas, but I know the truth that is is a cop out full of plenty of throw away material. Some guys might think their improvisations are as good as their compositions or whatever, good for them, but it is wrong to give students the idea that THAT is the normal way or appropriate way to approach flamenco and creativity with in it. I don’t want to get into it, but since you mentioned “licks”, well, jazz or indian classical, you name the genre, are not much different in this regard. There needs to be a basis. But out of all these genres the “licks” that constitute “flamenco falsetas” are generally longer passages than the musical devices (licks) in other music styles that use improvisation.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2021 18:56:58
 
chester

Posts: 801
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

The basic structure and harmonic movement (chord progression) is already there

I think the point is that following the harmony is not enough to make something (accepted as) "flamenco". Which is fair. Just like noodling on a pentatonic scale with a blues chorus behind you won't make it "the blues".

This is something that I think applies to most (if not all) musical languages (and languages in general). Learning the grammar of the English language won't make you sound English/American [insert tomato/tomato joke], you must immerse yourself among native speakers to appropriately understand the context of the rules (and when they can be/are broken). The theory follows the practice and all that.

If I may offer my perspective, it seems like you (Aaron) are trying to have a higher-level discussion about the language while Ricardo is seeing another noob asking/saying "so if I play the E minor scale with a g#, THAT'S flamenco right"? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Personally I'm fine with the thought/statement that without learning/copying a lot of "cannonical" falsetas one will most likely never fully understand/sound flamenco. Just like playing fast arpeggios with triplet embellishments sprinkled with some chromatic passing tones over ii-V changes won't make you sound like Charlie Parker.

In other words it's like that famous REM song says -- everybody sheds.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2021 21:46:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12573
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to chester

quote:

If I may offer my perspective, it seems like you (Aaron) are trying to have a higher-level discussion about the language while Ricardo is seeing another noob asking/saying "so if I play the E minor scale with a g#, THAT'S flamenco right"? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.


Well simply put, it went like this
Aaron:”What’s with these guys doing note for note copies of Paco et al these days?
Ricardo: “Well that is how flamenco is learned”
Aaron: “that’s not what I am saying, you have to do your own thing ie be original”
Ricardo:”actually in flamenco no you don’t”.
Aaron: “I don’t accept this answer”
Ricardo: “it is just the way it is deal with it”

And on and on it goes. I am all for “higher level discussion” so long as we are all on the same page. Earlier there were some great questions, but if answers invoke strong push back because they go counter to expectations, well, there is not much incentive to move forward and we remain stuck at the basic premise. I tried to give an analogy to the above that was not well received either:

Sabicas:”What’s with playing all that Niño Ricardo falsetas?”
15 year old paco de Lucia: “well that is how we all learn”
Sabicas: “a Guitarist should do his own falsetas”
PDL:”Mind blown....I start tomorrow composing my own sh1t”. (Thinks to himself, maybe this guy is jealous since HE also ripped some N. Ricardo, but still, it is such a different idea than the one we normally focus on in Spain, I am actually gonna take this advice to heart and go for it. Coming to NYC was a good idea after all!)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2021 13:42:14
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 98
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ote:

Is it just my imagination or is there a subtle subtext to all these threads about improv that's essentially "don't expect to make something up out of nowhere and have it sound like (ie "be") flamenco"?


Nothing subtle about it. I love improvisation, and composing. When I do it in a proper flamenco context, I know darn well how to make it “sound flamenco” but the simple fact remains, when a flamenco player IS improvising on the fly, it is easy to tell, and not for “good” reasons. I will do it during say a long escobilla but that’s only because I am too lazy to prepare appropriate music for that section. Sure my improvisation might yield some good ideas for serious falsetas, but I know the truth that is is a cop out full of plenty of throw away material. Some guys might think their improvisations are as good as their compositions or whatever, good for them, but it is wrong to give students the idea that THAT is the normal way or appropriate way to approach flamenco and creativity with in it. I don’t want to get into it, but since you mentioned “licks”, well, jazz or indian classical, you name the genre, are not much different in this regard. There needs to be a basis. But out of all these genres the “licks” that constitute “flamenco falsetas” are generally longer passages than the musical devices (licks) in other music styles that use improvisation.



and it was precisely this sort of response that I was hoping to elicit since day one.


the recognition that there are 2 hats:
the creator and the editor.
the editor cannot create. the creator must spew. they must alternate in some Socratic Hegelian dialectical process...

creativity is available upon demand, but the editor must STFU until it's time to weed out stuff...

perfectionism is the enemy of the creative process if it arrives at the moment of birth, as nothing in this world comes out fully formed.
we start vaguely, we approximate, we refine, all human activities are iterative processes. original ideas don't just pop out fully formed but are the result of experimenting, mixing and modifying existing things etc.,

One discovers falsetta-worthy material through noodling around, one edits and discards and hones.

Now, each existing traditional flamenco falsetta represents an opportunity to transform it, make it ones own!

One may also accidentally discover a famous falsetta merely by arpeggiating some flamenco chord shapes! (I'll be happy to illustrate some time if you ever want to laugh at my bad playing)
so, some of this is simply emergent from the instrument and idiomatic chord shapes and that funny reverse arpeggio thing lol.


By the same token, it's very difficult to do the same thing precisely the same way twice. There's also the human game of telephone. There are also differing expectations on "perfect repertory performing empty vessels" vs "humans who are expected to have their own style" etc...

Clearly you are cognizant of the perspective I've been struggling to bring here, and I see in many threads that you are familiar enough with differing musical modalities (not in the tonal/modal sense, lol... like ways of approach) in that you reference baroque ornamentation as differentiated from jazz improvisation.

One thing: there's ALWAYS a structure, "give me a fast hard-swinging II-V-I" or "it's a 12 bar blues" etc... a "head" or principle signature set of melodies that make a SONG a song, is like a falsetta.
even FREE JAZZ has structure. It turns out that it's difficult to deliberately consistently turn out bad music, who knew.

Perhaps there really IS some Calvinistic "pre-destination" here, and I must add that Jazz is one of our flagship "improv based music" and it is NOT purely improvisatory, as we note.
The chord progression, etc, harmonic dictatorship yikes! yet you can still create. creation happens. It's to be encouraged, not shamed into a corner. I'm pointing out group attitudes that MUST be fixed if one truly loves flamenco and wants it to survive. (I hear you on conformist culture generally over here...)

so, I wasn't sure if you were invoking some Calvinistic "pre-destination" argument as if the structure of a flamenco palo leaves one no room for authentic improv, or what...

NOW I SEE, that you simply differentiate between a refined composed product and improvisation, which, while possible, is not what leads to show-ready results.

Well, I'll admit that my flamenco improv is not as good as some of the ideas I've pulled out of it and refined. I also enjoy the process and enjoy hearing the process. I will pay good money to hear skilled artists improvise and possibly fall down or make mistakes! I'm ok with this concept.
I'm also quite openly NOT AS GOOD A PLAYER as you, Ricardo.

If I had your skill level, I'd been unstoppable. I'm already pretty hard to stop and I'm terrible, just wait til I'm even "not half bad"... LOL


Can you understand where I see an issue in the flamenco culture as propagated here in such a fashion with regards to the possibility of future flamenco that doesn't sound like endlessly living in the picado-dominated shadow of Paco de Lucia, who, while brilliant, is only one branch of the flamenco evolutionary tree...

I read a recent interview with José Mártos, a Venezuelano living in Spain and who is highly sought-after as an accompianist these days.
It made me sad to read that despite being extremely formed educated and an extremely cultured player, that he said that he did not "YET" have his own sound.
This is not something you can add in later!
ones OWN sound is the result of ones own human frailties,
ones own reductionist-engine at work, ones own mistakes and weaknesses and personality present when one tries to do something.

A TOTAL BEGINNER has their own style and can stay true to it!
THIS is something I know, and don't merely think. I promise to represent this idea until the day I die as it's important to me. I wish to pass this on to young people more than any other thing:

one can certainly always improve ones technique, but one is foolish to discard ones innate tendencies. Ones innate laziness is a GIFT as NO ONE else can cut that corner like YOU can!

One makes mistakes in trying to perfectly copy something, paying attention to those mistakes will be fruitful in ones future.
One is learning a piece, a tiny passage of it catches your fingers and you want to roll it in another direction- humor this instinct and mine it later for content.

BTW: Ricardo, as a perpetual beginner since childhood, I've actually developed a methodology for learning "generalisms" and avoiding literally learning others songs, and I've done this deliberately for my own goals which I tried to explain.
Humans essentially optimize for a given social game.
We sit at a table and people are playing an unfamiliar card game.
We want to know the RULES, how do you play this unfamiliar game?

Derive a general set of principles about an activity and then try/fail and then find out more about the structure and why try/fail produced the results it produced.

"teach a man to fish" vs "give a man a fish"
I'm a BIG proponent of meaning-based-learning.
Teaching the structure.
CAN one learn about fish anatomy after processing 1000 of them?
Yes. That's valuable experience.
CAN someone point out some skeletal structures and key organs and speed up your process? yes.
I did, in fact, look up how to conjugate 10 Russian verbs for I, you, we, they, and THEN set about learning and it went faster than a persons 2-3 years needed to learn to talk as a baby. It turns out that PIE grammatical structure assists in latinic/slavic learning (less so with English, as Bill noted)
I looked at a map in my friends toilet in Moscow and it said
Афганистан where I knew Afghanistan to be, and Йран where I knew Iran to be, so it wasnt' long before I had some basic comprehension of Cyrillic and this became a tool for further learning. One bootstraps from existing abstractions, however particularly wrong they may turn out to be from later detailed examination. (it turns out that many etymological changes are hidden from native speakers in most languages due to spelling and pronunciation changes over time, it's more obvious to a n00b)

End of the day: one is deriving the abstractions one filters the worlds stimuli via. one is honing mental models. one doesn't directly apprehend the world, but through ones senses.
humans primary tool is: "reductionism" because it's impossible to mentally model the universe in it's entirety without some sensory or locational bias, even time/space relativity would affect efforts at simultaneous apprehension of "it all"...

I'm not personally seeking to emulate PDL nor his music and thus, it's not an applicable approach. Have I learned from his music already by listening to it? Yes, immensely.
I don't want to hear his music in my head when I hold my guitar.

I must add that Paco de Lucia is hardly canonical flamenco, it's wild modern interpretations, avante-garde, far reaching. It's great, but you don't need to learn PDL to learn flamenco music, 2 different things there...
I was commenting previously that PDL appears to substitute for the word flamenco in much of the popular imagination, and this is not correct, surely you can agree or see what i mean there?
(I mean his original later works, not "traditional" early PDL)

I have an entire corpus of semi-original flamenco noodle that resembles flamenco but I've never learned one song of others. Will this lead me to nowhere? Will this approach fail me? I'm not seeking a career playing flamenco guitar. I enjoy making jaleo and listening to others.
I enjoy playing.

I found it odd that autodidacts that can learn elaborate pieces by ear don't extract structural information from said pieces to then generalize with. Of course they do!

and now I KNOW that this structural information has been processed. I've been reading some of the interesting harmonic theory threads here and it's clear that you know precisely about the generalisms I speak of.

I've been earnest (not trolling) since day one. I suppose the technical term is that I am a weirdo.

Chester, you really nailed it.
One must drink the water, swim in it, immersion.
There's no simple shortcut "formula"

Ricardo, you also quite nailed the adherence to conformity in Euro-Latinic culture, for which nothing new ever exists but as combos of previous editions.... partial truth lies in this observation, but I prefer American Ingenuity, LOL (there's that word again. Strikingly similar to "inspiration", which of course is directly tied to breathing, etymologically...)

(side note, it took rural rednecks to invent a plural "you" for English!?)


I suppose what is missing is a discussion of what personal hardships endured can make one more soulful or play with more immediacy..
"the sensation that death is a possibility"... the knowledge of how short life is... these all surely inform harmonic choices, as even given limited tools a delta bluesman like Robert Johnson can send shivers up ones spine.

Ramon Montoya got his first guitar at 18 or something was it?
He picked up some stuff in the cafés I guess?

I completely comprehend the inevitability of idiomatic passages in flamenco, and the "tyranny of the structure"
I merely suggest that one is more free inside this context that it's made out to be...

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2021 10:55:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12573
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to aaron peacock

In that case I would say, from my perspective, you are underestimating the “Editor” role in regards to how much work has to be put in for the editor to properly distinguish, and how important the editor actually is for flamenco SPECIFICALLY compared to other genres. I agree that there is plenty of room for creativity and personal contribution as you claim, however, this is thanks to the EDITOR’S efforts and hard work at properly educating the creator, so he doesn’t make an ass of himself.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2021 18:20:03
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 98
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

In that case I would say, from my perspective, you are underestimating the “Editor” role in regards to how much work has to be put in for the editor to properly distinguish, and how important the editor actually is for flamenco SPECIFICALLY compared to other genres. I agree that there is plenty of room for creativity and personal contribution as you claim, however, this is thanks to the EDITOR’S efforts and hard work at properly educating the creator, so he doesn’t make an ass of himself.


Lest we get stuck in philosophical arguments, let me concretize it.
I make a melody. It inspires harmonies. At some point some cool accident appears and hijacks everything and recontextualizes everything such that I remove the original melody and it's job is done and it can be forgotten.

If ones first reaction is to make an ugly face at the first melody, this process will never get off the ground. One has to have faith and proceed.
The editor should not even get out of bed until a few dozen rounds have occurred, lol

I agree that being physically capable of playing the music you are trying to birth is useful when you are also the performing artist. Practicing how to play ones instrument is probably important if you want to perform.
However, that aside, notions of "making an ass out of oneself" have no place in music, in my opinion. It's not a competition. It's expression. Human expression and communication.
I've certainly heard my fair share of what I would call mediocre falsettas from composed material as well, but I agree with your point that the process that may start in improvisation can result in much better material after some edition and iteration.

I'm pretty sure that music theory and conscious mental processes are not where music comes from.
I particularly loved and used the sound of the 5th mode of the melodic minor superimposed on the melodic minor root before I even know what a "mode" or "the melodic minor" was! I just loved the SOUND of it and the way it made me feel. I feel it like a kind of weird relative major...

I don't think that learning theory has had any effect whatsoever on my inner muse, if anything it's irrelevant to it. My fingers and my subconscious produce and I can only watch and try to harness some of it.

I don't understand why one would want to suppress creativity, particularly in the field of music.

I suspect that we have fundamental differences in viewpoints.

I suppose I'll just have to eventually post some video in which I play some stuff I made and you can say if you think it sounds like flamenco, if you find it low-quality, etc...

as I always contend that music is the primary medium. (it tells you all the information you need. Ask Grisha. He apparently learned all that by ear!)

Talking about is less so. I suppose a musical forum is a bit of a bind there...

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2021 1:54:26
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12573
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

I don't understand why one would want to suppress creativity, particularly in the field of music.


Your idea that the harsh editor is somehow aborting true creativity at its inception is false. Think of it as honing or streamlining, sharpening, refining. To quote Mclaughlin “there is no TRUE freedom without discipline”... and he was talking about why he works and studies and tries to learn more things. A baby can create things but the deeper art comes from the deep searchers and hard workers. Superficially things might look the same at times, a child’s scribble and a Picasso, but once you understand what is behind an art work, all the work that went into it (including copycat of other masters), it transforms into something else.

While the idea of extraction of only things of personal necessity or preference deliberately in order to not appear as the copycat is commendable as a concept for one who desires to be original, it also signals me as a potential “lack of discipline”. Maybe it depends on the specifics, but there is a method to the madness of the “traditional flamenco discipline”... and how could one know there is or not unless they have already gone down the path and come out the other side? Maybe to avoid it, it’s a short cut to something better, but sometimes it is actually the longer way around. From my perspective, the traditional “way” IS the short cut.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2021 15:49:18
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 98
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to aaron peacock

... back to the (alleged) topic.
You suggested rather "accompaniment vs solo performance" as basic groupings.

I had suggested this term Carlos LLave had used "concert flamenco" by which I meant a repertory approach, and this was based upon what I thought was an oddity, namely:
- whereas folks do covers of "La Tumbona", I've never heard anyone cover anything from Niño Miguel or the Parrila de Jerez, whom I thought of suddenly as I had just suggested them to Joe

Speaking of the latter, here's a brutal seguiriya (followed by buleria and alegria) from Mr. Grill/Grid from Jerez, note the JS Bach quote I thought you'd appreciate given our conversation so far... (he accompanied Agujetas with a similar one, falsetta-wise, as expected)


_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2021 21:29:47
 
aaron peacock

Posts: 98
Joined: Apr. 26 2020
From: Portugal

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Maybe it depends on the specifics, but there is a method to the madness of the “traditional flamenco discipline”... and how could one know there is or not unless they have already gone down the path and come out the other side? Maybe to avoid it, it’s a short cut to something better, but sometimes it is actually the longer way around. From my perspective, the traditional “way” IS the short cut.


I agree. A traditional flamenco approach is fine for learning flamenco. This teaches generalities, public domain falsettas etc, right? there's nothing wrong with some rote-learning for getting stuff inculcated into flesh, but being extremely careful of what the content is my singular exception. i stop at the point of learning a singular humans riffs unless it's reformed and digested and reflected. I can point out a passage in that young Manuel Cerpa's performance that, to me, sounds like digested reactions to a specific PDL falsettas without being superficially similar.
You, of all people, should be aware of the tools one has for taking an existing thematic nugget and transforming it.
Take Beethovens 5th opening line and the elaboration of it for an obvious example, and those are simple devices, reharmonization/recontextualization, etc..
one can take a falsetta apart and study it under the fingers and pivot out of it in various points to other places, move it to different locations, follow the consequences of where it leads. that's all fully respecting the original falsetta, it's seeking it's inner wisdom... ok, i sound kinda silly now, but you get what I mean, and I'll not have to keep repeating this sort of extremely dead horse material. I can't carry my end of the thing anymore, i can't represent this idea like an ideology. i simply must get back to my music and not worrying about trying to bug anyone about my ideas.
I think that a flamenco school like our El Carbonero's is probably the best place to get a general background beginning. Were I not generally occupied I'd consider a few months intensive study but I'm about to rebuild a ruin 100km from here and my ex-wife is taking this place and there's this pandemic on and we can't even go between concelhos at the moment, let alone cross over to Spain...no issues with traditional learning.
I found it rather odd that people thought learning PDL songs was learning nuclear flamenco concepts, that's mostly what it was before all the weird stuff started :P

...this entire thing came in at a crossways from the post wondering why the word flamenco exclusively became captured in the popular imagination by the singular genius (not denied, I love his music.) of PDL (he's a saint in Spain too, but there the "dictatorship of the palo, of the form, of the culture" takes precedence)
I get that being able to play PDL indicates a level of guitar-playing technical skill far above the average flamenco. That's obvious from any PDL album.

So, out of all your music collection, what artists get "covered" the most by others?

_____________________________

List of Arts Where Experimentation is Dangerous:
1) Sword-Combat
2) Aerial Acrobatics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2021 21:47:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12573
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

I've never heard anyone cover anything from Niño Miguel or the Parrila de Jerez, whom I thought of suddenly


Nuñez teaches a lot of Parrilla material in his Encuentro video...I understand you might have not seen that. The devices are quite present in his music though often in altered forms. Antonio Rey quotes Parrilla directly in his buleria on colores del fuego. Important to note, Rafael Aguila was the guitar teacher of both Parrilla and Nuñez...but Gerardo always gave credit in class to Parrilla. Aguila and M. Morao were the students of Javier Molina, the “creator” of Jerez school of playing.

N. Miguel, no offense to those that love that guy and his tragic story, seems more as a footnote to 70’s era Paco than anyone else I have ever heard, right down to same chamber orchestra concept. I won’t take away from him some incredible cool innovations (especially the Rondeña Buleria that he first put together like chocolate and peanut butter)...the innovations perhaps being more the inspiration than the actual mechanical falsetas, of which we already have PDL the model for.

Think this way, sabicas inspired Paco’s toque in a big way despite the fact his mechanics are designed after Niño Ricardo’s. Paco next became the “upgraded model” to study...after you get the mechanics you are on your way to use them as you wish knowing your results will be grounded. The thing unique about PDL, is he actually got inspired by his disciples to upgrade musical concepts and devices further. He is sort of unique in the genre to have covered so much ground (hence new comers only “like” this period or that period of his music). That is why he serves as the primary model to copy.

When I first went to spain, it appeared to me the most popular falsetas were those of 1.Moraito, and 2. Tomatito. Why? My feelings are that their falsetas operate using PDL mechanics and design exactly...however they are of a certain “short” duration that superficially appears more accessible and “fun”...funny thing is they are no easier than PDL material.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2021 15:29:27
 
Schieper

 

Posts: 150
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
 

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to aaron peacock

following video inspired me to post here;



With this grew my appreciation for somebody playing just old stuff.. note for note.. as this involves much more creativity than I envisioned before...

and on a side note.. why do they not make television like this anymore ;-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2021 10:27:52
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3299
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to aaron peacock

A few observations on this topic:

quote:

So, it occurs to me that the entire bad-blood discussion before was based upon a misunderstanding. We are actually talking about 2 different bodies of music with shared roots: Concert Flamenco, in which skilled players play complete compositions (own or other) vs the folkloric traditions of elaborating nuclear flamenco, as practiced for centuries and still today.


I thought the previous discussion before was about copying compositions versus improvising original compositions.

"Concert Flamenco, in which skilled players play complete compositions (own or other)" is usually where most of the original creativity goes. This sounds like solo guitar, with players making up their own falsetas and solos and trying to be original. Because they have grown up learning the material of the previous generation this is inevitably the base they start from, so it influences their own creations. The "copying" of others' creations mostly happens naturally as a learning process in childhood, and/or later in life in order to study composition and/or technique, and is performed as an homage or nod to the past.

"the folkloric traditions of elaborating nuclear flamenco, as practiced for centuries and still today." is pretty much accompanying cante, with or without baile, so the guitar has historically had far less creativity in this supporting role. The guitarist has to play in a way which the singer (and/or dancer) recognises and can relate to. There is far less scope here for creating original material. In a way the guitar has to "conform" to the role expected. This role both allows and demands far more "copying" of traditional material, but conversely, as there is no score and nothing is set in stone every perfermance is "improvised", albeit by the spontaneous arrangement of pre-learned falsetas, llamadas, cierres, remates, marcaje, etc.

EDIT: Also the "folkloric" label is not without question. The so-called "Golden Age" of flamenco was the cafe cantante era in the second half of the 19th Century when many of the palos we know today were formed and/or developed, and that was a scene of professional artists performing in commercially run cafes.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2021 15:18:53
 
joevidetto

 

Posts: 81
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

RE: Learning: Concert Flamenco as di... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

Concert Flamenco, in which skilled players play complete compositions (own or other) vs the folkloric traditions of elaborating nuclear flamenco, as practiced for centuries and still today.


IMHO - PDL emerged from playing folkloric traditions to "concert flamenco" - as we speak, guitar players around the world are learning his vocabulary and creating what will be part of the 'folkloric traditions' of tomorrow.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2021 15:23:48
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.1099854 secs.