Advice on buying my first Flamenco guitar

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Pardo

Posts: 4
Joined: Dec. 12 2020

Advice on buying my first Flamenco g...

Hello,

I am an electric, western and classic guitar player and about to buy my first Flamenco guitar.
It’s quiet difficult, for me there are very few options to try the instruments, there just are almost no shops in my area that sell these guitars.

Anyway.. after research and talking with other guitarists I decided not to buy too cheap.
It’s also clear that I want a Negra guitar.

I don’t want to struggle any longer and there are two options:
1. Burguet Negra
2. Conde FP14NA

The Conde normally is 550 euro’s more expensive than the Burguet but at this moment I can get the Conde for the same price as the Burguet (2300 euro’s).

Very difficult... The Conde is the cheapest Conde out there, but it’s still a real Conde.
The Burguet is considered to be a ‘professional’ Flamenco guitar though.

I really hope there is someone here who has experience with these two guitars, so can compare them, and give me his or her thoughts on this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2020 2:18:36

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Pardo)

Where are you based? My Soleá model looks like it's in your price range and is entirely hand by myself.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2020 11:26:26

Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:20:49

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2020 11:48:51

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Pardo)

quote:

The Conde is the cheapest Conde out there, but it’s still a real Conde.

What is a "real Conde"?

you might like to read through this thread:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=100890&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=conde%2Cquestions

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2020 14:06:11

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

My Soleá model looks like it's in your price range and is entirely hand by myself.

They are terrific!

I have two of them, and sold a Conde A26 (ie. top model blanca at the time) to pay for the second one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2020 14:07:35

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Pardo)

Look at Eden’s guitars. The lower tier Conde’ models are made in Siberian gulag labor camps. Get one from Eden and when you need another order a custom guitar from him. Also getting a Negra for your first flamenco is only going to lead to Blanca envy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 1:15:59

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

getting a Negra for your first flamenco is only going to lead to Blanca envy

So true. There is nothing like a dry blanca.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 10:57:37

Pardo

Posts: 4
Joined: Dec. 12 2020

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Thank you for the offer but I don’t really like the look of that guitar, but that’s ofcourse very personal.
I also need a guitar that I find really pretty to look at.

I’m sure they are very good though!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 15:22:22

Pardo

Posts: 4
Joined: Dec. 12 2020

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to mark indigo)

People are talking way too much.

I will be the first to admit that I do not know a lot about flamenco guitars.
I am active in the guitar business for quiet a while though and am the proud owner of two classical Conde’s.
I visit the Conde workshop quiet often, my partner is close friends with Maria Conde.
During the making of my most recent made Conde I visited the shop 8 times to see the progress of the guitar.

I can assure you that even the cheapest Conde is totally made by hand, and is a ‘real’ Conde.
I have seen them being made, it’s not because I kind of know these people.
Yes, the cheaper models have several people working on them.
When a guitar comes out of the Conde workshop and has the Conde label on it, it is a Conde.
It has all the DNA and the typical Conde sound.

Ofcourse I appreciate all your input and other advices but my question is if there are people that can compare the Conde FP14 with the Burguet Negra.
That’s why I am here for.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 15:25:06

Pardo

Posts: 4
Joined: Dec. 12 2020

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to estebanana)

Well, that’s really ****.
It tells me you never visited Conde.
You obviously have no idea how and where their guitars are being made.

As I wrote above I visited Conde quiet some times and can assure you you are totally wrong on this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 15:28:57

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 15:44:49

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Pardo)

I don't mind at all that you are not interested in my guitars. Looks can be important if you are willing to pay for them. My Soleá model is for people on a budget that want a great sound and are willing to sacrifice on the decorations. My concert flamenco guitars are designed for those who want both. Although they do both sound the same.

Did you move away from the Conde workshops that you visited so often? Otherwise surely they would have the model you are interested in, in stock for you to try? By the sounds of it, you are already pretty emotionally invested in getting a Conde so just get one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 16:07:49

Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Pardo)

Owning the Burguet negra 2a and having played the Negra, my conclusion is and was that Burguet builds really exiting instruments.

But I never would buy an instrument in that price range, online. I need to play them as all is so personal and different from build to build.

Coming from classical/e-guitar myself, I made the same mistake. I went for a negra as it sounded best to me. After playing flamenco for a while, I just needed to switch to a blanca for the shorter sustain and the louder trebles. Also the negra seems to me a bit harsh.

In general terms (as I can not remember having played the Conde FP14NA nor having an active memory of any Conde guitar I played; the simply where not my cup of tea or I am to mediocre for them), I think both are exelent guitars. For me the Burguets have a higher artistic finish. Also the coating is nitro where the Conde uses lacquer.

The Conde has a flat back while the Burguet has a slight belly..

The Conde might be the easier re-sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 22:48:22

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Pardo)

Hey idiot, if you’re such an expert and in the guitar business why do you bother to ask opinions and turn around and say “there’s too much talking” ? You don’t know your rear end from a hole in the ground. Quite isn’t spelled Quiet ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 23:52:50

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Stephen, I thought he was rather rude, I don’t find anything objectionable about the looks of your instruments.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 23:56:50

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2020 23:57:56

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Pardo)

Ahh honestly I'm not hurt at all. I've built over 120 guitars of this style so there are plenty of people that do like the looks of it. I have also heard many people say they don't like the looks which is fine, I'm thick skinned so don't take it personally. Saying that I am re-styling the classical version ready for next year. I really like the Soleá rosette though so will probably keep it like that. It's a Vincente Arias rosette from the 1880s I think. I can't remember the date on the plan.

I think Pardo came here expecting everyone to swoon all over the idea of a Conde as it's a world renowned flamenco brand, which of course back fired as no one recommended it. But hey, this is just a flamenco forum full of hardcore flamenco enthusiasts, what do we know! It's a bit like going on a classical guitar forum and letting everyone klnow how good you are because you own a Ramirez 1a.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2020 8:08:20

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Pardo)

quote:

People are talking way too much.

I will be the first to admit that I do not know a lot about flamenco guitars.
I am active in the guitar business for quiet a while though and am the proud owner of two classical Conde’s.
I visit the Conde workshop quiet often, my partner is close friends with Maria Conde.
During the making of my most recent made Conde I visited the shop 8 times to see the progress of the guitar.

I can assure you that even the cheapest Conde is totally made by hand, and is a ‘real’ Conde.
I have seen them being made, it’s not because I kind of know these people.
Yes, the cheaper models have several people working on them.
When a guitar comes out of the Conde workshop and has the Conde label on it, it is a Conde.
It has all the DNA and the typical Conde sound.

What is the difference then, between the cheaper models and the more expensive models?

What you say about the provenance of guitars from Felipe Conde's current shop is almost certainly not true of all guitars from all of the different "Conde" shops (there have been 3 at any one time since the demise of Domingo Esteso) EDIT: and for all time periods.

The picture has been very confusing, hence the long thread and discussion I posted a link to. This information may not reflect the current situation, but is certainly worth referring to for anyone buying older models second hand...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2020 11:30:06

Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

The only thing I realy hate about your guitars Stephen, and I think this is something you should take up to improve in 2021, is the VAT. Call the guys in London and tell them you no longer want that subscription... ;-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2020 11:52:10

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Schieper)

I would agree with you except I don't charge VAT. So I guess there's nothing not to like! Although if you are any where outside of the UK from January 1st VAT and duty will be added :(

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2020 21:56:54

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Did you know Boris still owes taxes in the US from when he was younger and worked in the US? Put the VAT on his account, he seems to give taxes a pass when he owes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 0:04:53

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 0:59:32

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 3:06:36

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Pardo)

quote:

People are talking way too much.

Welcome to 2020... but trash talking conde has been popular since 2003 or so when I joined the internet. It’s damn hilarious after 17 freaking years so please join the fun party! 😂 Say hi to felipe jr for me if you see him, good peeps. Never got to try a Maria conde yet.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 4:06:45

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Did you know Boris still owes taxes in the US from when he was younger and worked in the US?

No, that wasn't it. Boris is a clown but this business with the IRS isn't a case of tax evasion by any reasonable metric. It's just that FATCA is quite possibly the dumbest policy ever devised. It's a shame he caved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 6:46:07

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Ricardo)

We aren’t trash talking, we’re saving the planet from guitar monoculture.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 6:48:41

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Piwin)

You’re defending Boris with US inept policy? Brexit is about 5000 x as inept.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 6:52:47

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to estebanana)

This is this. That is that.

I'm "defending Boris" on this particular issue because he's just one high-profile case of something that happened to thousands of people with less means to defend themselves. And also because it's a matter of accuracy. It's simply incorrect to say that he owes taxes from when he worked in the US, because he never worked in the US...

The US tax system is insane for citizens abroad. And you'd be the first to know as you've undoubtedly noticed that among foreigners all your American friends over there are filing two sets of taxes every year and all your friends from anywhere else are only filing one. That combined with this issue of "accidental Americans" and it has created quite a bit of strife for people who aren't that well off.

One friend of mine only became aware that he was considered a US citizen when his bank in France refused him service. He was born in the US. He left when he was 2. He's never been to the US since. He doesn't speak English and has no connection at all to the country. He had no idea the US considered him a citizen. The choices he was given was either to retroactively report and pay 5 years of taxes to the IRS, or to pay somewhere around 2.5k to renounce this citizenship he didn't even know he had. That was about 2 months' salary for him, and throw in the cost of travel and the like to the US consulate for a process that took well over a year, and he was out somewhere around 3.5k IIRC. That's a decent flamenco guitar gone un-purchased because of an ill-conceived bureaucratic policy.

He was understandably pissed that our own institutions did nothing at all to protect him. He was happy to see a high-profile figure like Johnson tell the US to shove it, even if he did eventually cave.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 7:13:26

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Advice on buying my first Flamen... (in reply to Piwin)

Ok point taken, but conflating what US citizens do while residents overseas and the people who leave when they are two- these are two separate issues.

When a child leaves with parents to live permanently in another country it’s the parents responsibility to sort out the nationality, passport and citizenship issues. And after that it’s reasonable for the country of permanent citizen ship to seek remedy with the US. And after that there are tax agreements between several countries wherein a person who changes permanent country residence can still pay into a tax system that after retirement merges the in ones from two separate countries through one of the countries retirement systems. Anyway
, much ado about a VAT tax joke that was a throw away line intended for a chuckle.

So Accidental American status saves people’s lives if they are refugees or seeking asylum. The fact that Boris’ mommy and daddy didn’t fix him right with State Dept or that he didn’t do it himself, isn’t the US’s fault because the policy is clear. And as I recall he arrogantly and flagrantly picked a fight with US authorities over it, not in small part to curry himself some of that English nationalism clout that he swaggers around with to get him the votes to form a coalition that enabled him to foist Brexit on those who didn’t want it. So from my view the Accidental American phenomena may be irritating, but BJ clearly used it to up his image as anti yankee to nationalist ends. He had the means to handle it discreetly, or to work on a deal with the US between GB 🇬🇧 and the yanks to waive the fee for adults who slipped through the cracks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 7:30:41

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 8:23:50