Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira and Philip John Lee who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





half-compás in alegrías?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Steelhead

 

Posts: 59
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

half-compás in alegrías? 

Estimated (estimados) comrades,
There has been much fruitful (for me) explanation of metrical nuances in bulerías and soleares in this forum, e.g., noting that in bulerías there can be plenty of 6-beat half-compases, but in soleá the 12-beat compás should be maintained, though there can be rubato, and the cambio placement etc can vary. My current question is, what about alegrías? Since alegrías and soleá have similar compases, my assumption would be that in alegrias as in soleá, the 12 beat compás should be maintained, but then what about this vid, where at 0:22 La Perla de Cádiz (in Rito) starts the “tiri-tiri” business at beat 5 (and I understand that ppl place it differently) and somewhere along the line six beats get lost/added. Is this commonplace/”permissible”, in a way different from soleá?



_____________________________

Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2020 21:32:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

Is this commonplace/”permissible”, in a way different from soleá?


Used to be more common. There was a Duquende example as well. This example is half compas, and she is doing it deliberately. Cepero keeps 12 beats so relative to him she remains at all times (just her intro) crossed, but the harmonies still work because they change on either 3 or 9 as normal, just reversed in this example. And the crossed feeling is only a result of standardization imposed by the baile. If you can handle solea of moneo etc this little thing in Alegrias is no problem it’s the same type of thing but much easier. Cepero does a half compas picado himself soon after (starts on 7 but count that as “one” for a full compas). Cool beans.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 4:52:51
 
Steelhead

 

Posts: 59
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Ricardo

Interesting. Faustino Nuñez, in his flamencopolis site, says starting the tiritiri on 5-6 is a Cádiz thing, and he has a little vid where he demonstrates with guitar, but maintaining the 12-beat compás. Is it up to the guitarist whether to do that or make it a half-compás?

_____________________________

Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 13:00:44
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

Interesting. Faustino Nuñez, in his flamencopolis site, says starting the tiritiri on 5-6 is a Cádiz thing, and he has a little vid where he demonstrates with guitar, but maintaining the 12-beat compás. Is it up to the guitarist whether to do that or make it a half-compás?


All alegrias/Cantiñas are a “cadiz thing”. I was just listening to an Alcala anthology of bootleg performances and the old guy sang something pretty outside compas wise in Alegrias (see video below). So the compas crossing cante thing is like the old school’s “advanced jazz” and it’s across the board all styles and regions. Some aficionados realize singer A does weird things and never notice that other singers they know and love always did the same or similar things.

As far as what the guitar should do, well it’s whatever you can get away with depending on the company you are in. Montoya did half compas solea, borrull too, but niño ricardo and Melchor rarely if ever did. Morao cut every bulerias in half but never solea. Cepero seems to adhere to those same standards. In modern times only Antonio carrion i have noticed cutting compas in solea and I’m not so sure how deliberate it was.

People that listen to flamenco are at various stages of understanding and focus. Person A might hear it and not notice anything weird happened, person B will notice and insist it is “wrong and out of compas”, person C notices and thinks “the singer can’t sing in compas the guitarist had to change to make him look good”, person D noticed and thinks “the guitarist should have kept 12’s though the melody was crossed, this was not good”, person E will notice and think “half compas, beautiful, nicely done!” Etc. In the end you just have to understand what’s going on and make your own decisions when accompanying.

A detail about it...tiri ti tran.. tran tran ..... the timing starts between 10-11 or between 4-5 which is equivalent. The rhythm is the same as the colatilla. &11&12 (1)&(2)&(3))...(4)&5&6 (7)&(8)&(9)... etc. when people talk about tiri tiri tran... their timing concept is already off cuz there is only one “ri” going on!😂



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 13:43:04
 
Steelhead

 

Posts: 59
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Steelhead

Well put!

_____________________________

Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 14:52:16
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 662
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

People that listen to flamenco are at various stages of understanding and focus. Person A might hear it and not notice anything weird happened, person B will notice and insist it is “wrong and out of compas”, person C notices and thinks “the singer can’t sing in compas the guitarist had to change to make him look good”, person D noticed and thinks “the guitarist should have kept 12’s though the melody was crossed, this was not good”, person E will notice and think “half compas, beautiful, nicely done!” Etc. In the end you just have to understand what’s going on and make your own decisions when accompanying.

I'm probably the person E. Paco Cepero's accompanying style is growing on me. In the video above he's not that metronomic but this makes him sound like more a human than a machine.

quote:

Cepero does a half compas picado himself soon after (starts on 7 but count that as “one” for a full compas). Cool beans.

A half compas picado? Do you think the short phrase at 0:40-0:42 is a half compas picado?
To me that long picado run at 0:42-0:46 is a full 12 beat compas.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 19:19:33
 
kitarist

Posts: 1004
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Do you think the short phrase at 0:40-0:42 is a half compas picado?
To me that long picado run at 0:42-0:46 is a full 12 beat compas.


Is there supposed to be a contradiction implied by these two statements? Because there is none: two different time periods, two different lengths - one half, the other full compas long. Great insight that the second run goes over a full compas and thus is not the half-compass picado run which happened before that.

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 19:41:29
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 662
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Is there supposed to be a contradiction implied by these two statements?

No contradiction. I just tried to break down one and half compas at 0:40-0:46 into a half and a full compas.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 20:06:20
 
kitarist

Posts: 1004
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I just tried to break down one and half compas at 0:40-0:46 into a half and a full compas.



Ah. Well, you did it!

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 20:13:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

quote:

Cepero does a half compas picado himself soon after (starts on 7 but count that as “one” for a full compas). Cool beans.

A half compas picado? Do you think the short phrase at 0:40-0:42 is a half compas picado?
To me that long picado run at 0:42-0:46 is a full 12 beat compas.


So then we have person F who thinks he is person E but actually is stuck as A or sometimes B but doesn’t want to be.😂

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 20:20:12
 
kitarist

Posts: 1004
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

So then we have person F who thinks he is person E but actually is stuck as A or sometimes B but doesn’t want to be.😂


Is there a significance to the fact that all letter labels you used are also note names?

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 20:38:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

So then we have person F who thinks he is person E but actually is stuck as A or sometimes B but doesn’t want to be.😂


Is there a significance to the fact that all letter labels you used are also note names?


Then there is person G who reads way too deeply into the thing going on...it’s just compas it’s not physics.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 21:17:42
 
kitarist

 

Posts: 1004
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 19 2020 21:39:57
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 21:24:12
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3111
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I'm probably the person E




quote:

A half compas picado? Do you think the short phrase at 0:40-0:42 is a half compas picado?

Yes
actually the picado is less than a half compas, the rest of the half compas is filled with a chord and a couple of beats pause

quote:

To me that long picado run at 0:42-0:46 is a full 12 beat compas.

Yes

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 21:31:11
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3111
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Person A might hear it and not notice anything weird happened, person B will notice and insist it is “wrong and out of compas”, person C notices and thinks “the singer can’t sing in compas the guitarist had to change to make him look good”, person D noticed and thinks “the guitarist should have kept 12’s though the melody was crossed, this was not good”, person E will notice and think “half compas, beautiful, nicely done!” Etc.


maybe person A comes after person E....?

when something like that happens I tend to think "oh, something happened, probably half-compas" and then listen to it over and over again to figure out what happened and if that was it. Catching it on the fly is something else.

quote:

Cepero keeps 12 beats so relative to him she remains at all times (just her intro) crossed, but the harmonies still work because they change on either 3 or 9 as normal, just reversed in this example.

Thanks for pointing that out - Not half compas!

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2020 21:40:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

maybe person A comes after person E....?


Depends where you are from. In Germany person B is actually person B flat and person H is actually person B natural.

To cut in half or keep 12’s, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous aficionados,
Or to take up guitars against a Sea of puristas,
And by opposing end them: to rematar, to corte;
No more on the 10; and by corte, to say we corte in
6’s, and the thousand natural shocks
That the Compas is heir to? .....

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2020 16:38:33
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 662
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Depends where you are from. In Germany person B is actually person B flat and person H is actually person B natural.

Not only in Germany, but also in other countries Serbia, Denmark, Norway, Sweden Hungary etc.

quote:

person B is actually person B flat and person H is actually person B natural.

If it's not the note itself but its pronunciation then what about do re mi fa ...?
In some countries like Spain, Italy, Latvia, France, Romania, Bulgaria, Portugal, Greece and Russia person E would be person mi.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 12:55:44
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3111
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

quote:

Depends where you are from. In Germany person B is actually person B flat and person H is actually person B natural.

Not only in Germany, but also in other countries Serbia, Denmark, Norway, Sweden Hungary etc.

quote:

person B is actually person B flat and person H is actually person B natural.

If it's not the note itself but its pronunciation then what about do re mi fa ...?
In some countries like Spain, Italy, Latvia, France, Romania, Bulgaria, Portugal, Greece and Russia person E would be person mi.


when there's a one of these you don't have to take it seriously or literally... it means it's a joke...

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 12:59:08
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3111
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

To cut in half or keep 12’s, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous aficionados,
Or to take up guitars against a Sea of puristas,
And by opposing end them: to rematar, to corte;
No more on the 10; and by corte, to say we corte in
6’s, and the thousand natural shocks
That the Compas is heir to? .....


to B or not to B, maybe a C or an E....

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 13:04:30
 
Steelhead

 

Posts: 59
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 21 2020 15:00:49
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 14:05:22
 
Steelhead

 

Posts: 59
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Steelhead

I don't know if this thread started out as the sublime, but it has certainly gone to the ridiculous. But I think we need to mention another person -- person H -- to Ricardo's excellent list (of listeners), i.e, the singer (maybe even La Perla) who is like, "We did a half-compás there? I don't know, I didn't notice, whatever, I just sing."

_____________________________

Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 14:42:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12210
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelhead

I don't know if this thread started out as the sublime, but it has certainly gone to the ridiculous. But I think we need to mention another person -- person H -- to Ricardo's excellent list (of listeners), i.e, the singer (maybe even La Perla) who is like, "We did a half-compás there? I don't know, I didn't notice, whatever, I just sing."


Yes sorry, it was a serious topic that went astray. My opinion about this phenomenon is that the singers were always “free” to let the melody lie in the compas however they want, knowing that the “ballpark” is one line of verse is approx 1 compas long. But what they were actually doing, before the boxed in baile orthodox structures where violently imposed, was sing OFF of accents. So they spring off the accented beat into the contra...so they might hear a 12 or 10 or 3 or 6 etc and not worry about which one it was because they know the guitar is there holding it down and it doesn’t matter. The good example was Mairena in rito y geografia with morao, where he sang Joaquin de Paula style 1 and repeated it such that one time it was off the 12 accent (“normal”) and the other was off the 8 accent (“crossed”), the same lyric and melody.

1:53 is off the 8, 2:12 is off the 12.



If you have an orthodox Baile understanding of compas, the repeat at 2:12 lies “correctly” in the compas, where as the first one feels like he’s in outer space. If this was a one off example most would say it was a “mistake” on his part. But after examining many singers that do similar things I concluded this was “normal” however, we could chart the amount of times the melody aligns to various other places. Starting on 1 is most common, on 7 second most common, on 11 3rd most common, on 3 or 9 4th most common, etc...

I would argue that starting on 1 or 7 is done quite deliberately, where as the others are simply read off of one of the other accents, meaning they hear a 3, 8 or 10, but feel it like it was 12 or 6 with not much care about it.

Here watch this at 4:25...the singer is singing perfectly fine but the guy in the white shirt doing nudillos (knuckles on the table) has an orthodox square box concept of solea such that he is adjusting tempo and cutting the compas all over the place as if to impose or “force fit” the guy’s singing into the box. Melchor would never play like that and at 5:51 looks over at the baby like “WTF is this compas mess?” Lol



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 16:45:37
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3111
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

they hear a 3, 8 or 10, but feel it like it was 12 or 6 with not much care about it.

who's counting?
the best flamenco i know in my locality (happens to be a dancer) doesn't count, and I'm sure would just feel 12 or 6 or whatever the guitar accompanying the cante went with.

i often feel like sticking up for the baile a bit* in these discussions, because not all* bailore/as are so into this box thing. I sat in on some classes with Juana Amaya in Sevilla and at one point a student asked what beat something happened on. Juana stopped the class and gave everyone a talk on how flamenco is not classical where everything is set in stone, and not maths where everything is counted out, the compas is a base for improvisation, and you have to feel your way in it. She also said one time she was hiring a singer, and the singer asked "do you want me to sing cuadrao" and she told him "if you sing cuadrao i don't want to work with you."

*only a bit, because i take your point about baile and boxed in cante generally, just often feel i want to point out there are exceptions, as I'm sure you're aware, but others might not be.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2020 19:48:25
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3111
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: half-compás in alegrías? (in reply to Steelhead

quote:

I think we need to mention another person -- person H -- to Ricardo's excellent list (of listeners), i.e, the singer (maybe even La Perla) who is like, "We did a half-compás there? I don't know, I didn't notice, whatever, I just sing."


that's what i was trying to suggest with my little joke about "maybe person A comes after person E....?" i.e. the original list of letters were like progressive levels of knowledge/experience, and that the first one that didn't notice anything amiss (A) is higher than the one that noticed and thought it was nicely done (E)

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2020 13:08:01
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

7.617188E-02 secs.