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Whole tone and Octotonic scales and other junk in Solea toque   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

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Whole tone and Octotonic scales and ... 

Got any examples or ideas?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 3:34:23
 
mark indigo

 

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From: UK

RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Whole tone and Octotonic scales and other junk in Solea toque  


for the whole tone you can just get buzzed on beer and make it up, but for the octatonic you really need the Swiss clinic....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 8:57:53
 
RobF

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

At least with whole tone you have a 50% chance of getting it right...

(...or maybe it’s a 100% chance of getting it wrong)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 9:14:53
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

I think Vicente has some whole tone licks here and there but for octatonic you should be able to grab inspiration from Holdsworth.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 11:03:44
 
estebanana

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to mark indigo

Not bad answer, I’m almost convinced.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 12:06:58
 
estebanana

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to Sr. Martins

I’ve heard whole tone scale fragments in Vicente. I know one of the falsetas with whole tones, but I don’t really like that particular one.

I’ve been messing with a whole tone run through two octaves that has lots of potential. The reason I’m interested is because Jason McGuire taught me that is you want to make a key sound like a home key, play something that moves it away from its tonal center and then then bring it back to the tonal center and it feels refreshed and tight.

Example, moving into minor triads in Algerias and then back to major tonality. It gives definition and resolve to a key to move away and then move back into it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 12:14:56
 
estebanana

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

BTW octotonic scales are also called diminished scales. Whole step half step whole step half step etc. or begin on half step whole step etc. there are two modes of transposition.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 12:17:16
 
estebanana

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

Since the remate chord in Solea is E, why not play with the G# and F# making them a whole tone apart. And starting on E, F#,G#, B flat, C, D, E, F#, G# B flat etc.?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 12:21:59
 
mark indigo

 

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From: UK

RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

for octatonic you should be able to grab inspiration from Holdsworth.


Holdsworth's Soleá was clearly influenced by his "Swiss Clinic" period.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 13:10:12
 
RobF

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

play something that moves it away from its tonal center and then then bring it back to the tonal center and it feels refreshed and tight.

Similar to locking onto the root and one for funk bass, there’s a lot of freedom with what can go in between.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 14:03:17
 
Mark2

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From: San Francisco

RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

Check out Vicente's solea in F# on the last album.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 15:56:47
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Since the remate chord in Solea is E, why not play with the G# and F# making them a whole tone apart. And starting on E, F#,G#, B flat, C, D, E, F#, G# B flat etc.?


La Barrosa does this exact scale at 4:28 ascending, starting on C natural, then changes to A major back down from E.



A lot of what I have been arguing about scales and theory as it applies to flamenco, is that it uses tonal function. That means, since E is the tonic in solea, I pointed out a lot of the interesting tensions deal with the F chord harmony, the idea being it might resolve finally to a stable E triad. A lot of confusion about flamenco is that it must be making use of exotic scales over the tonic (phrygian idea), and indeed it is there we find the failed “fakemenco” attempts wasting a lot of effort.

The reason the scale works in La barrosa is because he is building tension before resolving to A major actually. So your idea works and as you can see IS USED in flamenco successfully...but for the wrong palo. It is working to make a more tense E chord that want’s to resolve to A finally. If you used this in solea, same thing, you would use it to pull to A minor perhaps.

The first time I hear paco using it was his last solo in “Guardian angels” live Friday night disc. He runs it over the progression Am-G-C-B, however the same notes are emphasizing the tension of the C9#11 chord (Bb-C-D-E-F#) which resolves to B. At 3:19:



After this he uses it on the intro of montiño, again as tension over the F chord that wants to resolve to E final. So this means the better one that works also in solea is this one...Eb-F-G-A-B...then the C# is your funky de Falla note, also has been discussed.



Please note however, even though the above are specific whole tone scale applications, you have 3 versions of melodic minor that work as well. First if you change your Eb to E nat above, you have D melodic minor working over the E chord. That is the Falla sound, and the whole tone portion of the scale (most of it minus E-F,C#-D) has the same vibe. The next is if you change the C# to C natural, you have a more consonant sounding F9#11 chord, this is lydian dominant (C melodic minor), and again you get all the whole tone vibe minus the B-C-D-Eb part of it. And finally the super locrian based on E is F melodic minor. You get the whole tone vibe again (wrong one, this time it doesn’t pull or imply F->E tension release because we have Ab)...but here we see the infamous octatonic thing at work, the important part of it, Ab-G....so very exotic. Gerardo Nuñez uses this one that emphasizes the whole tone aspect then resolves Ab-G-F-E at 1:28



I know the above examples are “fast” runs, but it often takes that in order to argue a “complete scale” is actually being used and we don’t have just some accidentals going on.

And the octatonic thing simply doesn’t exist in these contexts. It is why we use ABCDEFG and not ABCDEFGH. There are accidentals or variable notes at work. Ab-G-F-E is NOT the same as G#-Gnat-F-E. You use one or the other if A natural is involved (EDIT...sorry, you meant the 8 note whole half symmetric... again we talked about this in the scales thread, I showed examples of Falla, Paco, Chicuelo, and even Ramon montoya using either fragments or the whole scale. In flamenco, the variable note is the use of the minor AND major 3rd in context, ie, G-G#. See my replies to Piwin here: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=320753&mpage=3&p=3&tmode=1&smode=1&key=

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2020 16:14:42
 
estebanana

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

I’m not completely sure how I feel about the idea of staying with a tonic borderline, I kind of feel and like to stretch the idea that there can be elasticity to the reckoning of a tonal center. Of course you go back to it, because it’s Solea, but I’m more interested in the French ideas about whole tone scales as atmospheric, rather than used to play outside changes over chords. But that’s ok too.

I don’t remember the falseta I came up with, it was ten years ago, but I showed the idea to Jason and he says you know you modulated into Ab and came back. Because when I got to Ab I stopped and looked at him, like yeah I meant it. He looked at the chord progression and said hmmm. Next time I saw him he played a falseta based on my idea, but better than mine because he’s better, but it was still my idea to get to Ab. I don’t think he kept the falseta, but he played with the idea half to show he could do it better and half to tell me it was not a bad idea.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2020 8:41:00
 
estebanana

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to Ricardo

The the diminished scale is also used a lot in rock, so in the Jack Black school you could call it the Rocktotonic scale

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2020 8:47:14
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to Ricardo

Scales. My favourite topic. Can't get enough of it.

Is falseta a stand-alone melodic line or is falseta composed in such a way that it can be used as a solo over chord progressions? For example during Solea cante accompaniment the first guy plays falseta and plays the rhythm part after that. The other guy plays the same falseta the first guy played as a solo over this rhythm part.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2020 12:45:25
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

but I’m more interested in the French ideas about whole tone scales as atmospheric,


It’s ok, but the point of flamenco is to build the tension then rematar. Especially the phrygian keys because they are borderline ambiguous with the relative minor key. It is why we must first study maestros, and in the end even PDL admitted to trashing falsetas that had run astray of the flamenco essence. It doesn’t really limit what you can do in flamenco you just have to be conscious and careful, respectful.

quote:

but I showed the idea to Jason and he says you know you modulated into Ab and came back
. That can work. What I used in my solea was a modulation to G phrygian, which makes use of Ab (lydian). I got into it via the cambio (C major->C minor). At 0:56



quote:

The the diminished scale is also used a lot in rock,


Honestly I never came across it until the Guitar Trio. Any examples?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2020 21:14:02
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Is falseta a stand-alone melodic line or is falseta composed in such a way that it can be used as a solo over chord progressions? For example during Solea cante accompaniment the first guy plays falseta and plays the rhythm part after that. The other guy plays the same falseta the first guy played as a solo over this rhythm part.


Traditionally, historically no. Usually in a duet situation it is worked out just like a classical music duet is arranged. The only difference is that there actually MIGHT be chord strumming involved but there is no rules about it. Arpegios are more often the way to color a melody since the singing requires mainly chords and you want the falseta to stand out more melodically. However I have been in a postion to accompany the dance with two guitars and no singer was available, so we did similar to what you describe. We took turns playing or improvising what would be the cante melody while the other guy did the chords. Some duet instrumentals can work this way as well. Paco did it on cositas buenas with his tientos actually.

But the concept of a REPEATING cycle of chords where one guitar improvised melodies over the progression played by the other guy was only first introduced in rumbas in the 70’s. Paco introduced this idea to the ending of his solea Plaza Alta and his minera in 1976 on the Almoraima album. After this, the next I am aware it was applied to flamenco compas was possibly Manolo Sanlucar’s bulerias or Paco’s “Chiquito” with the guitar trio, not sure which was recorded first.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2020 21:28:16
 
mecmachin

 

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to Ricardo

very nice solea
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2020 21:52:17
 
estebanana

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo, I’m taking this all in, but super busy right now.
I’m teaching a classical guitar ensemble class to adult beginners on Saturday and I’m working in the school district during the week, building guitars from 5 to 10 at night- but trying to get practice in there too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2020 12:30:56
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

We took turns playing or improvising what would be the cante melody

What is the main reason why falseta ist played? What I understood is the main reason is falseta builds a contrast to the main chord progressions to create tensions which must be resolved. Am I right?
I have yet to find a falseta imitating cante melody during accompaniment.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2020 15:04:18
 
Ricardo

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

What is the main reason why falseta ist played?
They are instrumental interlude between verses of singing. Hope I don’t need to explain that further.

quote:

I have yet to find a falseta imitating cante melody during accompaniment.
. During accompaniment of what? Because I made it clear we did that because there was no singer available. And I took the idea from some old duet instrumental recordings, and the idea continues into the modern era with Compadres (fandango melody they take turns trading lines like Caracol and his son did on Rito y geografia) and the tientos on Cositas buenas, and many other examples. Montoya’s Rondeña guitar solo uses the melody of Levantica so the basic idea of imitating the cante on guitar is quite old.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2020 15:40:22
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

During accompaniment of what?

Cante accompaniment.

quote:

Because I made it clear we did that because there was no singer available. And I took the idea from some old duet instrumental recordings, and the idea continues into the modern era with Compadres (fandango melody they take turns trading lines like Caracol and his son did on Rito y geografia) and the tientos on Cositas buenas, and many other examples. Montoya’s Rondeña guitar solo uses the melody of Levantica so the basic idea of imitating the cante on guitar is quite old.

I think you misunderstood. What I meant was there are falsetas imitating cante as you mentioned but I haven't come across such falsetas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2020 20:53:25
 
Ricardo

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RE: Whole tone and Octotonic scales ... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I think you misunderstood. What I meant was there are falsetas imitating cante as you mentioned but I haven't come across such falsetas.


That’s because you don’t play those if you already have a singer for cryin out loud.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2020 7:37:29
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