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devilhand

 

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Syncopation in flamenco 

I thought playing syncopated rhythm on flamenco guitar started when flamenco got infuenced by jazz or other music genres (in the late 70's or during the 80's). I also read somewhere on the foro in traditional flamenco there's no such thing as syncopation.
But recently I've come across this Solea por Buleria by Aurelio Selles (1887-1974) accompanied by Andres Heredia. Syncopation everywhere. For example at 1:26-1:30 you can hear syncopation. It's actually an old recording so that we can say it's traditional flamenco. No fusion with anything.
How common was syncopation before the 70's? Could anyone post other examples for old recordings?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2020 20:50:12
 
Piwin

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

quote:

For example at 1:26-1:30 you can hear syncopation


Sounds just like straightforward 8th notes to me. Played staccato by muting the strings with left-hand finger, but not syncopation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 0:22:05
 
Ricardo

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

It’s not really syncopated in your example however long before this Niño Ricardo introduces very tricky syncopated Phrases. He did it in a repetitive manner. Later on paco and Manolo Sanlucar took the idea and managed it in an even more sophisticated way that inspired the modern generation.

But the falseta of Niño Ricardo I offered up on page 1 of this challenge topic was used both in guitar solo (his main televised one in 1964) and also accompanying Mairena. You might think using the metronome accent on 1,4,7,10 is odd at first when I play the basic solea compas... but it makes sense when you hear the crazy 16th note pattern.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=187687&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=ni%E3%B1o%2Cricardo%2Csolea%2Cfalseta&tmode=&smode=&s=#189177

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 5:24:16
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

That's a great video. It would be nice to see another Challenge after all this time. They were fun and mutually supportive.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 12:17:01
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Sounds just like straightforward 8th notes to me. Played staccato by muting the strings with left-hand finger, but not syncopation.

Straight 8 notes. Yes. But it sounds to me downbeats are muted and upbeats are played staccato. Then he plays a 16th note triplet on offbeat after that. Downbeat is again muted. To me it's syncopation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 12:19:07
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

It uses the "horquilla" technique he pioneered, a type of arpegio where you use "am" together, then i and p so you have a triplet phrase. Some players use this also and do a pull off for 16th note phrases.

As for the horquilla technique, when you play am together, do both fingers play the same string or do they pluck B and E strings at the same time? As for syncopation, pulgar plays the accented beat falling on every 3rd beat? Actually it doesn't feel like syncopation to me. Maybe I have to get used to these fast arpeggio sounding triplets. But there's polymetric stuff going on there for sure.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 13:22:19
 
Piwin

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

You'd have to write it down or something, because I'm honestly confused.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 17:16:47
 
Ricardo

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

quote:

As for syncopation, pulgar plays the accented beat falling on every 3rd beat?


No... only the first bass note is on the beat. The other 3 bass notes go against the time hitting as:
1(e,&)AH,(2,e)&(ah,3)e(&,ah). Please note it’s 4 bass notes per a single measure of 3. I offered people having trouble feeling it try to just do the bass line as 4 against 3. That is what synchopation is. The technique is triplet based but the rhythm feeling is not.

The technique is a and m on two different adjacent strings but both plucked at once. The thumb and index complete the pattern to make a triplet. The triplets repeat in the falseta such that the illusion of 12/8 or 12/16 triplet feel is occurring. But it’s not, it’s a 3/4 16ths feel but synchopated. It’s not easy.

Polymetric (polyrhythmic) would be if instead of a metronome Beat you heard this played against a traditional Solea palmas rhythm pattern. In other words the sound of the phrase coupled with metronome beat (or felt internally) is perceived synchopation. The Sound of the clashing rhythm palmas pattern coupled with the phrase, both together, create the polyrhythm experience.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 19:42:49
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Piwin

You wrote 8th notes which is correct. Every beat equals 8th note in this short syncopated part. Syncopation lasts 4 beats. (1& 2& 3& 4&) or (down up down up down up down up). The notes on each downbeat (1 2 3 4) are muted (x). The notes on each upbeat or offbeat (&'s) are played staccato except for the offbeat of the last 4th beat. So 4 is muted. & is played as a 16th note triplet. In short it will look like this (x up x up x up x up).

Whether offbeats are played accented or not (but it sounds like accented in the video above), it's still syncopation to me. Bossa nova has similar syncopated rhythm and feel.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 21:37:12
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

No... only the first bass note is on the beat. The other 3 bass notes go against the time hitting as:
1(e,&)AH,(2,e)&(ah,3)e(&,ah). Please note it’s 4 bass notes per a single measure of 3. I offered people having trouble feeling it try to just do the bass line as 4 against 3. That is what synchopation is. The technique is triplet based but the rhythm feeling is not.

After slowing down your video, I think it's polymeter. 4/16 (only 1st downbeat is heard as a metronome beat) against 3/16 (horquilla technique). Correct me if I'm wrong.

|1 & e a|2 & e a|3 & e a| 4 & e a|... beat
|1 2 3 1|2 3 1 2|3 1 2 3| 1 2 3 1|... technique
|* .... *| .... * ..| ..* ... | * .... *|... accents

Since some of the accents fall on offbeats, technically it's syncopation. But I'm still struggling to feel it as syncopated rhythm.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 22:05:19
 
Piwin

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

hmmm. You sure you gave the right time stamp? If you did, then at 1:29 you have beats 1, 2 and 3 played clearly, with one chord per beat. E-F-F, with the last one left to sound out more. You can work your way back from there. Right before that he plays beats 10-12 as staccato 8th notes. Downward rasgueo on beat 10, then i up on the "and", i down on 11, i up on "and", i down on 12. The staccato is done by bringing the left-hand pinky down across the strings (while still holding down the chord).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 22:22:43
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

hmmm. You sure you gave the right time stamp? If you did, then at 1:29 you have beats 1, 2 and 3 played clearly, with one chord per beat. E-F-F, with the last one left to sound out more. You can work your way back from there. Right before that he plays beats 10-12 as staccato 8th notes. Downward rasgueo on beat 10, then i up on the "and", i down on 11, i up on "and", i down on 12. The staccato is done by bringing the left-hand pinky down across the strings (while still holding down the chord).

I'd like to hear what other people say about this. Actually the offbeats feel different.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2020 23:55:17
 
Andy Culpepper

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

Ricardo's example feels more syncopated to me than the SpB at the top of the thread. If you actually try to play it with a metronome you will see what he means.

Definition of syncopation. 1 : a temporary displacement of the regular metrical accent in music caused typically by stressing the weak beat.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2020 2:41:09
 
kitarist

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
It uses the "horquilla" technique he pioneered, a type of arpegio where you use "am" together, then i and p so you have a triplet phrase. Some players use this also and do a pull off for 16th note phrases.


Ahha, so this is the name of what PdL does in measure 34 of Barrio La Vina then:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2020 9:13:36
 
Piwin

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

quote:

other people


Right.... Got it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2020 11:39:58
 
aaron peacock

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

I'm no flamenco scholar, so with that caveat aside:
syncopation is as old as music. It's not an invention of any sort.
It's as simple as 4 groups of 3 adding up to 3 groups of 4.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2020 12:49:40
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Right.... Got it.

Other people. Yes. I thought the bigger the sample the better the result. Actually you started this discussion syncopation or no syncopation. If only you'd have taken it for granted... Actually the main point of this thread was syncopation in traditional flamenco. But the good thing about the discussion is one can learn something from one another.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2020 14:36:02
 
JasonM

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

My vote would be not syncopation technically like Miss Kim says. 1e&a, 2&, 3&
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2020 16:09:51
 
Piwin

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Actually you started this discussion syncopation or no syncopation.




Sigh. You wanted to talk about syncopation and used as basis an accompaniment that is barely syncopated at all, describing it as "syncopation everywhere"... That's relevant, because for one it suggests that you haven't yet mastered the most rudimentary aspects of flamenco rhythm if you're really hearing that as complex syncopation. And if you can't hear it, there's no point discussing the broader evolution of syncopation in flamenco with you (note that the only person you (sort of) listen to on this forum said as much: "It’s not really syncopated in your example"). As a general rule of thumb, it is absolutely correct IMHO to say that older, traditional flamenco, has far less complex syncopation than modern flamenco. But that simple fact can't be appreciated by someone who hears "syncopation everywhere" in the piece you posted. None of that denies the existence of precursors and artists who stood out from their peers by using complex syncopation at a time when it was not yet the norm. The treatment of rhythm has changed considerably from those times to the present day.

In any event, I'm done with this. Here's my proposal: from here on out, I will not post anything on any of your threads. You have my word. I ask that you show me the same courtesy and not post on any thread I might open in the future. On threads from other foro members, we can simply ignore each other's posts. I'm afraid that's the only way we are going to get along from now on. There's nothing worth salvaging here, so I think just ignoring each other is our best option.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2020 16:24:26
 
Ricardo

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Piwin

Just want to clarify a couple things. There is a general question, specific examples, and general confusion or misunderstanding going on. Of course it can get people’s blood going. I don’t think devilhand means to be so annoying about his questions and follow ups, the best course is to matter of factly state what’s going on and leave it at that.

His first question about traditional vs modern, I think I clarify in my first post. N ricardo. Before him I don’t hear it.

Next his example. The player is not doing traditional playing, he is doing things that only appeared in 70s by PDL and others. So the example is poor. The part in question (count 10-12) is actually synchopated because of the right hand formula...I kept this fact to myself earlier because I didn’t want to get into it...but the right hand formula is also a modern development. The resultant rhythmic sound is NOT syncopated but the feeling the player has is. That’s why I simply said “it’s not really”. Devilhand has a general misunderstanding of how terms “syncopations” or “polymeter” are used by musicians in general and I had hoped my alternative example would kill two birds. I was wrong, oh well.

The rhythm sounding staccato at count 10-12 is a common modern formula. Here it is:

9&, starting on & is rasg ami-i up Such that final i is upstroke on 10. Next pinky left hand mutes or inserts a 16th rest on “e”. Next i down stroke hits & after 10. That off the beat downward strike sets up a syncopated feel in the right hand, as it’s normally down on the numbers, up on the &s. And left hand pinky inserts a rest at “ah”. The reversed feel continues as i comes UP on count 11. Pinky again. Now i down on & but it’s not a completed stroke, just a bass note flick and quick retraction. Pinky again. Finally 12 is a strong down stroke with golpe, returning to normal feel.

So that brief right hand formula indeed has synchopation by its reversed formula up,down,up,down down. But devil wrongly thinking the staccato or 16th rests produced by the left hand were the synchopation which it obviously is not...and I didn’t want to let him get away with thinking I was agreeing to that wrong interpretation, plus the player (recording is 1972, paco using it late 60s) having picked it up from modern playing trends.

Next on the list, he almost understands the N Ricardo falseta synchopation...but then he carries it out to BEAT 4 Negating the entire idea it behind it, or rather proving to us he still doesn’t understand the significance of the falseta. We can simply pray he gets a teacher...perhaps paying $ for information will inspire him to listen to it rather than argue against it???

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2020 17:15:42
 
Escribano

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

In any event, I'm done with this. Here's my proposal: from here on out, I will not post anything on any of your threads


You can block other members' posts if you click on the little green circle, top left.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2020 19:34:02
 
kitarist

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

hmmm. You sure you gave the right time stamp? If you did, then at 1:29 you have beats 1, 2 and 3 played clearly, with one chord per beat. E-F-F, with the last one left to sound out more.


I hear the same thing there. He basically is really talking only about 1:26-:1:28, counts 9-12.

He is also incorrect about offbeat strokes lasting 4 beats; it is within just two - 10-11. Ricardo spells it out in detail above starting with 9.5 (i.e. the & after 9) the RH doing ami DOWN, and competing the ami-i rasgueado with i UP on 10, then i DOWN on 10.5 (i.e. on & after 10), and so on again for 11 and 11.5, but back to 'regular' RH at 12 and onwards for 1-3 at 1:29-1:30 as you said.

But in 10-11 we hear both the downbeat and upbeat rather than omit downbeat so to me this is not really a syncopation in a rhythmic pattern/meter sense. I get what Ricardo is saying about syncopation in a RH finger pattern sense, if one wants to expand the definition this way; though that certainly wasn't what devilhand was talking about when referencing the segment.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2020 21:02:50
 
aaron peacock

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

What I was essentially alluding to is that 2 & 3 are the basis of all rhythms in all music from all time, and as such, something like a 12 count will ALWAYS be alternatively divisible in groups of 2 and 3 in such a way that the notation will IMPLY syncopation at the point things goes crossways with the notation... for example Pepe Romero saying that it's a bar of 6/8 followed by 3 bars of 2/4 , but you can make any combo you like, and that formalization, however high mighty and well-intentioned it might be, is actually merely a collection of what the mainstream brains THINK the genii were doing, after said genii are dead and their music is dismembered, etc... naturally the grammaphone and youtube having altered that equation.
I hope that doesnt sound too arrogant of a claim, the idea that the musicians feel things and express them and that characteristic well-formed expressions of a musician in action are interpreted by theoreticians as fitting into x.y.z box, which they may perhaps do, who am i to judge.
I'm new here and I'm still in thrall at how multiple voicings of a Fa in a Solea por arriba sound like different (funcional) chords... I'm actually still in awe at how a I-II can be tonic-dominant in a world in which chords share so many common notes... sometimes it's important to step back from the theory and notice that open strings are being taken advantage of, perhaps even by accident by someone at some point...
but as I said, I'm new here, so if I am offending anyone I will appreciate a warning before a public denouncement as I literally mean no harm and am merely a fellow traveller appreciating the lore that you folks here propagate and guard. I appreciate your work. I know stuff about music in general, not flamenco, other than being a rather bad flamenco guitar player and an afficionado of good ones!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2020 2:11:03
 
chester

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

something like a 12 count will ALWAYS be alternatively divisible in groups of 2 and 3 in such a way that the notation will IMPLY syncopation at the point things goes crossways with the notation


I think I get what you're saying, but why involve notation?

Syncopation, as far as I understand it is emphasizing a weak beat. A weak beat is essentially anything that's not a downbeat. This assumes that you're (in general, not you aaron) capable of maintaining a steady pattern where the transitions of silence into sound are at equal time intervals. (that sounds like someone on acid describing keeping a beat lol).

If you tap a beat with your fingers on a table and sing some rhythms, any "loud" sounds that come out of your mouth that don't coincide with your fingers tapping is a syncopation.

Does anyone disagree with that axiom?

quote:

I'm new here, so if I am offending anyone I will appreciate a warning before a public denouncement

White space between your words will make your posts and ideas sound more coherent. ;-P
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2020 6:29:20
 
Ricardo

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to aaron peacock

quote:

I'm actually still in awe at how a I-II can be tonic-dominant in a world in which chords share so many common notes... sometimes it's important to step back from the theory and notice that open strings are being taken advantage of, perhaps even by accident by someone at some point...


The best route is learn from the masters and the tradition and not worry about it. But since you brought it up, II-I is better thought of as bII-I such that bII is functioning as a tritone sub for good ol V-I. In normal Roman numeral usage, you don’t ever have a bII because the numerals are derived from the major scale only, or a mix of minor scales for the minor key. People seem to think it’s ok to make Roman numerals for any mode or scale and you simply don’t ever need to. But if one chooses to do it for Flamenco, then it’s inviting any ad hoc theory laws you feel like using....hence ton of argument about what’s going on with harmony in Flamenco. I say go with tradition OR, first lay out a complete new system for Phrygian key that can be agreed upon by all and then tackle theory problems.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2020 17:17:10
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

In any event, I'm done with this. Here's my proposal: from here on out, I will not post anything on any of your threads. You have my word. I ask that you show me the same courtesy and not post on any thread I might open in the future. On threads from other foro members, we can simply ignore each other's posts. I'm afraid that's the only way we are going to get along from now on. There's nothing worth salvaging here, so I think just ignoring each other is our best option.

Too much drama there. Feel free to post on my thread. Everyone's contribution is welcomed. There will be no restriction.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2020 21:59:24
 
RobF

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

In any event, I'm done with this.

Piwin. Don’t be pissed off.

Don’t be like me. At any given time around here I’m bound to be pissed off at somebody or something. And it’s not just here. COVID pisses me off. I have a buddy in Granada that’s been taking me on virtual walking tours of his neighbourhood just to help me keep my sanity. He lets me talk to people. Because he often forgets I’m there he holds the phone at waist level and when he does that it means the only people I can talk to are dogs. Sometimes small children. That pisses me off. If I’m gonna be the Max Headroom of Sacromonte I deserve more respect than having dogs growl at me just for giving a whistle or my friend getting slapped just because the nice pair of legs near the dog thought the whistle was for them. It pisses me off a lot. Enough for both of us. Devilhand is always trolling and that pisses me off too, but I take solace in that he doesn’t have a guitar. And I have a bunch. Most of which are for sale, which also pisses me off.

So, don’t be pissed off. As I said, I have enough for both of us, and can carry the load for a few others, too. As a public service.

Remember. You have a flamenco guitar and he doesn’t. Nyah Nyah and caca nana doodoo. That’s what I say, and so should you. It’s the adult thing to do.

Now, back to syncopation...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2020 6:26:21
 
RobF

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Feel free to post on my thread. Everyone's contribution is welcomed. There will be no restriction.

Thanks. I needed that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2020 6:42:41
 
kitarist

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RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to RobF

quote:

Devilhand is always trolling


Or he is just a beslubbering fool-born pumpion too solipsistic to ken the depths of his antisocial depravity; I vacillate between the two.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2020 7:10:40
 
Mark2

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From: San Francisco

RE: Syncopation in flamenco (in reply to devilhand

Sometimes I think Devilhand is really a knowledgeable flamenco guitarist who is just Fu%Kin^ with us. Other times I think he is that guy who wants an explanation for everything but never absorbs the essential elements of his inquiries. I guess he's good for increasing traffic on the foro either way. I kinda wish Ricardo would send him an invoice. A large one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2020 17:13:00
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